Template Composer's Opinions (please)
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I greatly admire (and require) you wonderful people who give us the starting blocks for the excellent compilations that we so often hear.
Being a recipient rather than a composer it would be useful to have some ideas about what you want, like, and dislike in having others add to what you've created. This can also be open to others to comment about adds that come after theirs.
Please, no names of individuals so that we can frankly discuss issues that may include irritations. We seldom have the opportunity in the "compliments" section to air critical issues, so let fly!
E.g. do you want/prefer an add to be technically perfect as compared to adding emotion and melody? Are you OK with adds that take center stage when you thought that was your position? How do you feel about adds that come almost instantly after you've posted? Should everyone upload a separate HD of their add for remixing? Is there and "order" in which you'd prefer to have adds happen that you think gives the best results?
The above are just suggestions as what's being asked for are not the obvious issues like bad timing, playing out of tune, not getting the chord structure right, etc. Those we all recognize, and often have sympathy for when it's a less experienced player.
OK to gripe, but also please give us ideas about what you like/want.
Thanks!
Being a recipient rather than a composer it would be useful to have some ideas about what you want, like, and dislike in having others add to what you've created. This can also be open to others to comment about adds that come after theirs.
Please, no names of individuals so that we can frankly discuss issues that may include irritations. We seldom have the opportunity in the "compliments" section to air critical issues, so let fly!
E.g. do you want/prefer an add to be technically perfect as compared to adding emotion and melody? Are you OK with adds that take center stage when you thought that was your position? How do you feel about adds that come almost instantly after you've posted? Should everyone upload a separate HD of their add for remixing? Is there and "order" in which you'd prefer to have adds happen that you think gives the best results?
The above are just suggestions as what's being asked for are not the obvious issues like bad timing, playing out of tune, not getting the chord structure right, etc. Those we all recognize, and often have sympathy for when it's a less experienced player.
OK to gripe, but also please give us ideas about what you like/want.
Thanks!
+6
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This is touchy... There will be blood! :D
"How do you feel about adds that come almost instantly after you've posted?"
I must admit sometimes I wonder why some wikiloopers post their add this quick, I mean, I tend to prefer a somewhat rehearsed take rather than a total improvised one. I'm not against improvised stuff, some tunes are great for that, and I know some wikiloopers are good at it but some tracks need a little bit of rehearsal I think.
The other problem with those super quick adds is that if someone posts an add to a track and then immediately posts another add to a different track, the first track to which he or she added will not appear anymore on the front page, I find it a bit annoying, am I the only one? B)
Come on, you can beat me now, I'm ready... round one, fight! :D
"How do you feel about adds that come almost instantly after you've posted?"
I must admit sometimes I wonder why some wikiloopers post their add this quick, I mean, I tend to prefer a somewhat rehearsed take rather than a total improvised one. I'm not against improvised stuff, some tunes are great for that, and I know some wikiloopers are good at it but some tracks need a little bit of rehearsal I think.
The other problem with those super quick adds is that if someone posts an add to a track and then immediately posts another add to a different track, the first track to which he or she added will not appear anymore on the front page, I find it a bit annoying, am I the only one? B)
Come on, you can beat me now, I'm ready... round one, fight! :D
+5
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Joined: 27 mai 2014
I think LiltleWing gave a good general picture of the wikiloops user. Any add is great, any form of expresion is something to behold right?
Considering theres a wide range of talents here, your average sloppy guy like me in terms of musical execution and production, and pros. You wouldnt take the fun away from dudes that just come and plug them self and record, giving no fucks! Yea i would like to be more altruistic, but nobody is perfect :). And thats fine, music can be performed at any level and still got something to say.
Considering theres a wide range of talents here, your average sloppy guy like me in terms of musical execution and production, and pros. You wouldnt take the fun away from dudes that just come and plug them self and record, giving no fucks! Yea i would like to be more altruistic, but nobody is perfect :). And thats fine, music can be performed at any level and still got something to say.
+5
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Posts: 139
Joined: 31 août 2022
I see myself as a novice composer who will one day start adding templates. When I do, I hope the adds will ADD, ie enhance the track, and not just add noise, or distract or change the vibe or meaning behind the track. I've seen this a few times. I think making a track too busy is fairly common. But perhaps that's the mix quality in many cases. For that reason, I think everyone should upload an HD of their solo add. Some musicians are great at mixing so that all instruments can be clearly heard, and I think would enjoy remixing an add when the template is a good one.
It's great that adds can come at any point in a track and don't get destroyed and that there can be multiple adds of the same instrument as people express their individual take on a track. So basically you can't go wrong on wikiloops! Almost anything goes!
It's great that adds can come at any point in a track and don't get destroyed and that there can be multiple adds of the same instrument as people express their individual take on a track. So basically you can't go wrong on wikiloops! Almost anything goes!
+5
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Posts: 55
Joined: 15 août 2015
I find this an interesting topic with a lot of angles. Too many for one post but here's my tuppence worth on two.
"We seldom have the opportunity in the "compliments" section to air critical issues" - well I think the opportunity is clearly there - it's how the 'issues' are expressed and then perceived by the recipient that's the issue. Using a light touch and avoiding coming across as judgemental seems, to me, as being a good starting point. Even so, it can happen that what is intended as gentle constructive criticism gets taken completeley the wrong way, but there's little that can be done about that and subsequent conversations can sometimes get out of hand. I've read some 'compliments' from the early days of wikiloops and there seems to have been a fair bit of feedback and give & take between participants and an acceptance that (polite) feedback was part of the game. Wikloops has moved on ofcourse so maybe folks are more touchy (or wary) now or additions are just taken at face value and left at that.
It's likely a reflection on the music that interests me, but many (and by no means all) templates are drum tracks. It seems the exception for the sticksmith to _describe_ what they'd like to happen to their template - most often it's communicated by the _style_ they've used to describe the template (eg rock, metal, reggae etc).
"We seldom have the opportunity in the "compliments" section to air critical issues" - well I think the opportunity is clearly there - it's how the 'issues' are expressed and then perceived by the recipient that's the issue. Using a light touch and avoiding coming across as judgemental seems, to me, as being a good starting point. Even so, it can happen that what is intended as gentle constructive criticism gets taken completeley the wrong way, but there's little that can be done about that and subsequent conversations can sometimes get out of hand. I've read some 'compliments' from the early days of wikiloops and there seems to have been a fair bit of feedback and give & take between participants and an acceptance that (polite) feedback was part of the game. Wikloops has moved on ofcourse so maybe folks are more touchy (or wary) now or additions are just taken at face value and left at that.
It's likely a reflection on the music that interests me, but many (and by no means all) templates are drum tracks. It seems the exception for the sticksmith to _describe_ what they'd like to happen to their template - most often it's communicated by the _style_ they've used to describe the template (eg rock, metal, reggae etc).
+5
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Joined: 19 mars 2022
Just some quick, unsorted thoughts
Like Wade, I have been a "consumer" of compositions. Simple reason being that I am focussed on "practicing" rather than "creating".
Once in a while I come across templates where my additions would totally change the character of what had been created by others. In one such case I used the template as a new upload (of course referencing the original musicians ;)) so as not to put off others who wanted to add to the original idea. In another case I uploaded the new template to the crazy remix board. But mostly, I keep these "going off on a tangent" templates to myself.
Having said that, I really appreciate the variety on Wikiloops as it comes in many different forms. It may be the pure "technical capability" of musicians, the ability to surprise by not only adding something but at the same time taking a track somewhere unexpected or even just mixing a track differently. In that sense, the freedom to do as one pleases is part of what I love about Wikiloops. It leads to a "natural" evolution of a track and that can inspire listeners.
On the other hand, I can understand Wades` point about making wishes in which direction a track might/should go. And even if it`s no more than a suggestion, I think it should be respected. A solution for that might be to add only remixes that meet the suggestion and upload all other remixes as a new track (referencing the original). But I don`t think this would work as a strict rule, rather as gentle guideline for each of us, something to think about before the upload.
Writing this as a relative newbie with just 100 uploads, I still (and hopefully always) regard myself as an uninvited guest on the jams. All those who have contributed until my adds have a sort of ownership from my perspective (even if they themselves don`t feel that way). And as a guest I don`t get to break up the party.
On the "fast add" topic...some musical geniuses just "have it". Listen, download, record, upload all within 15 minutes...and it sounds great. Me, I need to practice and even then I often hesitate before uploading, as usually by then others have already uploaded a similar remix, often much better than mine. In which case I listen in awe and quietly delete my version.
Most important topic from Wades` post for me is the "critisism" topic. Frankly, I appreciate critisism. Did I lose something during the mixing process (happened just last week, hadn`t noticed and was thankful for the friendly comment), was my timing wrong (may not have noticed, as I was too focussed on melody), was my bass add to the verse ok but sucked during the chorus section because I missed the change to the backbeat ... Some things I notice only when they are pointed out to me. May just be my brain that works this way, but it`s the reason why I have no problem with hints and suggestions on what I could have done better or differently (Leaving aside the question if I would have been capable of doing it better). I do want to enjoy myself here but also improve.
Long reply, but these thoughts needed "out"
Like Wade, I have been a "consumer" of compositions. Simple reason being that I am focussed on "practicing" rather than "creating".
Once in a while I come across templates where my additions would totally change the character of what had been created by others. In one such case I used the template as a new upload (of course referencing the original musicians ;)) so as not to put off others who wanted to add to the original idea. In another case I uploaded the new template to the crazy remix board. But mostly, I keep these "going off on a tangent" templates to myself.
Having said that, I really appreciate the variety on Wikiloops as it comes in many different forms. It may be the pure "technical capability" of musicians, the ability to surprise by not only adding something but at the same time taking a track somewhere unexpected or even just mixing a track differently. In that sense, the freedom to do as one pleases is part of what I love about Wikiloops. It leads to a "natural" evolution of a track and that can inspire listeners.
On the other hand, I can understand Wades` point about making wishes in which direction a track might/should go. And even if it`s no more than a suggestion, I think it should be respected. A solution for that might be to add only remixes that meet the suggestion and upload all other remixes as a new track (referencing the original). But I don`t think this would work as a strict rule, rather as gentle guideline for each of us, something to think about before the upload.
Writing this as a relative newbie with just 100 uploads, I still (and hopefully always) regard myself as an uninvited guest on the jams. All those who have contributed until my adds have a sort of ownership from my perspective (even if they themselves don`t feel that way). And as a guest I don`t get to break up the party.
On the "fast add" topic...some musical geniuses just "have it". Listen, download, record, upload all within 15 minutes...and it sounds great. Me, I need to practice and even then I often hesitate before uploading, as usually by then others have already uploaded a similar remix, often much better than mine. In which case I listen in awe and quietly delete my version.
Most important topic from Wades` post for me is the "critisism" topic. Frankly, I appreciate critisism. Did I lose something during the mixing process (happened just last week, hadn`t noticed and was thankful for the friendly comment), was my timing wrong (may not have noticed, as I was too focussed on melody), was my bass add to the verse ok but sucked during the chorus section because I missed the change to the backbeat ... Some things I notice only when they are pointed out to me. May just be my brain that works this way, but it`s the reason why I have no problem with hints and suggestions on what I could have done better or differently (Leaving aside the question if I would have been capable of doing it better). I do want to enjoy myself here but also improve.
Long reply, but these thoughts needed "out"
+5
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Excellent topic and, predictably, a tricky one too.
Like MySounds, Wikiloops for me is the perfect 'random practice generator' so I'm more a consumer than a composer although I've done plenty of templates over the years. I try not to choose tracks based on their quality or performance but on more simple criteria:
1) Do I like the tune?
2) Can I actually play against the tune?
Item 2 is the one that largely excludes me from adding. Tracks not done to a metronome are hard work for me for technical reasons - acoustic drums are noisy so I need a clear view of the music in my ears which isn't always easy - especially as I have to balance volume versus not making my tinnitus worse. If tracks contain stops and starts as well, it's pretty hard to get those nailed with no click and you end up 'chasing the track' which is a reason I'll put an attempted recording in the bin.
Drums are uniquely positioned, in my opinion and experience, to utterly transform the flavour and feel of a track. If you're adding to existing music, you need to 'belong' to it as best you can and clicks are what make that possible, or at least much easier! Whilst I love the loops, I'm sadly not prepared to lose half a day (nor is my partner particularly happy about me shutting myself away in the studio for hours and hours at a time) trying to get in time with a track and all the likely corrections afterwards.
I'm very fortunate that my adds are usually well-recieved and, in my experience of now 9 years on the loops, many musos wait for drums before they add. Tracks can sit doing nothing for ages until someone puts on drums and suddenly the tree comes to life. I treat it as my responsibility to give the best quality I can to give any following musicians the best base possible. If my performance doesn't meet my own internal QA standards (I'm pretty hard on myself - it's what helps me improve), it goes in the bin. But that's just me.
Regarding the question about quality, I'm pretty ambivalent about it. Every level of ability is represented here and if they have a go, good on them. It takes balls (especially as a beginner) just to add here for the world to hear and criticise and that should be applauded. We've all had to learn from our mistakes and if I can provide the support necessary to a track to make it interesting and/or accessible to other players, then my 'job' is done.
Templates are hard for drums - I generally imagine a piece of music in my head and run with that. What usually follows after upload I never, ever expect and the stylistic tangents that follow I find fascinating. I love hearing how different musicians interpet the same base music. That, for me, is one of the raw joys of Wikiloops and any expectations of quality or choices are irrelevant to me. Saying that, I don't do enough templates. Most of mine are pretty formulaic and I try to keep it relatively simple for the benefit of those who follow - I try to think in terms of accessibility for all. Every so often I let rip but [usually] the music matters more than the ego for me.
So quality matters not to me. I'm happy if someone just has a go and also happy that I've helped them do it. Sometimes a track turns out to be a blinder and it's a little frustrating I can't remix to really get the shine out of it due to a lack of HD stems but that's the way it goes.
Ultimately, I'm an old hack having been playing for 40 years. I contribute because it keeps me fresh and equally I like to pass on what I know to others hoping how I go about it can help (not deter) other players get a foot up. Hence my often-wordy descriptions of my uploads. What I would've have given to have had a resource like Wikiloops at my fingertips during my formative years!
Like MySounds, Wikiloops for me is the perfect 'random practice generator' so I'm more a consumer than a composer although I've done plenty of templates over the years. I try not to choose tracks based on their quality or performance but on more simple criteria:
1) Do I like the tune?
2) Can I actually play against the tune?
Item 2 is the one that largely excludes me from adding. Tracks not done to a metronome are hard work for me for technical reasons - acoustic drums are noisy so I need a clear view of the music in my ears which isn't always easy - especially as I have to balance volume versus not making my tinnitus worse. If tracks contain stops and starts as well, it's pretty hard to get those nailed with no click and you end up 'chasing the track' which is a reason I'll put an attempted recording in the bin.
Drums are uniquely positioned, in my opinion and experience, to utterly transform the flavour and feel of a track. If you're adding to existing music, you need to 'belong' to it as best you can and clicks are what make that possible, or at least much easier! Whilst I love the loops, I'm sadly not prepared to lose half a day (nor is my partner particularly happy about me shutting myself away in the studio for hours and hours at a time) trying to get in time with a track and all the likely corrections afterwards.
I'm very fortunate that my adds are usually well-recieved and, in my experience of now 9 years on the loops, many musos wait for drums before they add. Tracks can sit doing nothing for ages until someone puts on drums and suddenly the tree comes to life. I treat it as my responsibility to give the best quality I can to give any following musicians the best base possible. If my performance doesn't meet my own internal QA standards (I'm pretty hard on myself - it's what helps me improve), it goes in the bin. But that's just me.
Regarding the question about quality, I'm pretty ambivalent about it. Every level of ability is represented here and if they have a go, good on them. It takes balls (especially as a beginner) just to add here for the world to hear and criticise and that should be applauded. We've all had to learn from our mistakes and if I can provide the support necessary to a track to make it interesting and/or accessible to other players, then my 'job' is done.
Templates are hard for drums - I generally imagine a piece of music in my head and run with that. What usually follows after upload I never, ever expect and the stylistic tangents that follow I find fascinating. I love hearing how different musicians interpet the same base music. That, for me, is one of the raw joys of Wikiloops and any expectations of quality or choices are irrelevant to me. Saying that, I don't do enough templates. Most of mine are pretty formulaic and I try to keep it relatively simple for the benefit of those who follow - I try to think in terms of accessibility for all. Every so often I let rip but [usually] the music matters more than the ego for me.
So quality matters not to me. I'm happy if someone just has a go and also happy that I've helped them do it. Sometimes a track turns out to be a blinder and it's a little frustrating I can't remix to really get the shine out of it due to a lack of HD stems but that's the way it goes.
Ultimately, I'm an old hack having been playing for 40 years. I contribute because it keeps me fresh and equally I like to pass on what I know to others hoping how I go about it can help (not deter) other players get a foot up. Hence my often-wordy descriptions of my uploads. What I would've have given to have had a resource like Wikiloops at my fingertips during my formative years!
+7
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Posts: 127
Joined: 23 juil. 2013
As always, Wade is skilled at raising interesting discussion topics... The ones I have read (and will continue to read...) all seem accurate to me and all contribute an interesting edge of thought.
Dick's logo on the cover says it all in his tagline...
If it were for the number of listeners, negative or inappropriate comments, or my own template tracks of poor technical quality (in my musical sense or mixing) I should have left WL a long time ago!
I think it's hard to put order in such a global community, with so many thousands of musicians and tastes!! but the truth is that it is achieved after 11 years on "antenna"
As a template editor with a greater or lesser audience, I only know that I have been able to play with musicians here of immense talent with whom I would never have met, the format and order being interesting and at the same time very desirable to make tracks or templates, it is only for my means to enjoy music with musicians from around the world
I myself have uploaded countless tracks where, for example, in addition to declaring everything extremely neat: chords, time, beats, genre, guide color bars, and even the exact format of the recording in comments, I have had tracks without loopers and at the same time tracks made with improvisation without information like #70896, dozens of additions from other loopers with unexpected and even great directions
Therefore I don't have a general idea to convey about the edition of templates, without a doubt small and simple things like uploading the isolated HD track, and the basic chords ... will always be welcome for "looperian" mixes and jumps
đđ
Dick's logo on the cover says it all in his tagline...
If it were for the number of listeners, negative or inappropriate comments, or my own template tracks of poor technical quality (in my musical sense or mixing) I should have left WL a long time ago!
I think it's hard to put order in such a global community, with so many thousands of musicians and tastes!! but the truth is that it is achieved after 11 years on "antenna"
As a template editor with a greater or lesser audience, I only know that I have been able to play with musicians here of immense talent with whom I would never have met, the format and order being interesting and at the same time very desirable to make tracks or templates, it is only for my means to enjoy music with musicians from around the world
I myself have uploaded countless tracks where, for example, in addition to declaring everything extremely neat: chords, time, beats, genre, guide color bars, and even the exact format of the recording in comments, I have had tracks without loopers and at the same time tracks made with improvisation without information like #70896, dozens of additions from other loopers with unexpected and even great directions
Therefore I don't have a general idea to convey about the edition of templates, without a doubt small and simple things like uploading the isolated HD track, and the basic chords ... will always be welcome for "looperian" mixes and jumps
đđ
+6
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Posts: 68
Joined: 10 févr. 2021
I try to be open minded about adds to my templates. If I post a composition I've usually spent hours if not days refining it but I have no expectation that a musician take that much care in their add to it. I enjoy the improvs and unusual instruments and approaches. Of course I appreciate it if someone does a meticulous add that makes the track really "pop", but as Xenon said everyone has something to say. I'm not a pro and I still have a lot to learn.
As far as critical comments go, that's always going to be tough in a forum like this. Maybe carefully worded private messages is a better way to bring up something that is a bit off? For example I remember someone commenting on HOW I had produced a particular vocal. I PMed the person asking for advice because I am adequate at best on the processing side of tracks. He gave me a very informative response.
Good topic, thanks Wade!
As far as critical comments go, that's always going to be tough in a forum like this. Maybe carefully worded private messages is a better way to bring up something that is a bit off? For example I remember someone commenting on HOW I had produced a particular vocal. I PMed the person asking for advice because I am adequate at best on the processing side of tracks. He gave me a very informative response.
Good topic, thanks Wade!
+6
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Posts: 91
Joined: 29 août 2022
I haven't made too many templates (and of the ones I made, not all have been remixed), so maybe my opinion does not weigh a lot in this discussion. Take it for what it's worth :D
I see wikiloops as a remixing site, and so to me, a quick remix is really satisfactory if it sounds good (good enough), if it adds something to the music (expected or unexpected), whereas a quick remix that sounds very out of tune or has extremely sloppy timing (and where such remix doesn't fit the general expectations I had about a track) can feel a bit "meh" - a bit like someone freeloading on my stuff? I should add that what constitutes a "good addition" depends on context: in experimental tracks, I hope and expect for people to go wild and shred my stuff to pieces.
I do welcome constructive criticism on my tracks and additions, but I think I should explicitly mention this in the track description, otherwise people will only post positive stuff (or refrain from posting at all).
I see wikiloops as a remixing site, and so to me, a quick remix is really satisfactory if it sounds good (good enough), if it adds something to the music (expected or unexpected), whereas a quick remix that sounds very out of tune or has extremely sloppy timing (and where such remix doesn't fit the general expectations I had about a track) can feel a bit "meh" - a bit like someone freeloading on my stuff? I should add that what constitutes a "good addition" depends on context: in experimental tracks, I hope and expect for people to go wild and shred my stuff to pieces.
I do welcome constructive criticism on my tracks and additions, but I think I should explicitly mention this in the track description, otherwise people will only post positive stuff (or refrain from posting at all).
+7
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