seriouss wrote:
maybe we should at least leave the newbie room to the newbies.
:D
maybe we should at least leave the newbie room to the newbies.
:D
There's a newbie room???
+1
Room for newbies?
Page 2 de 2: 12
There's a newbie room???
I just check and from 620 new joiners just 3 adds. So let give them time and support them.It will be better if we can easy select tracks from new joiners. :)
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Interesting thought xchange here, and thanks to Bradford for pointing out the solveable issue in the member search, we will add that sooner or later, it's a good idea.
I'd like to briefly add my view on this - I do not feel we have a major problem here at this time, as I hardly ever found a new uploading wikiloops members profile where I felt the contributions were going in the right direction, but also felt the individual had been overlooked by the community.
From my experience, people who understand what wikiloops is about and dare to add something are likely to be spotted and noticed.
It does of course depend on their choice of track to remix, and I have been preaching newbees should remix active users tracks to get feedback all along.
As a last resort, each one of us veterans can promote some discovered newbees upload via shoutbox, along the lines of "oh, dont miss our new member X on kazoo in track #xyz..." - I've done and seen that in the past, and it helps a lot.
Now, this may be correct, but it also needs a bit of explanation.
You guys are talking as if every newbee on wikiloops was a potential uploading candidate.
This is technically correct, but the vast majority of people registerring a wikiloops member account has not done that with the intention to upload. Regardless of the free accounts limitations (which were not in place in the early days), the number of newbees who ended up uploading never exceeded 5%.
There is just more people who can do with a practise backing track than people who home-record and are looking for a collaboration opportunity, it would be wrong to think that split was due to a lack of welcoming culture on wikiloops. A much better approach to measuring the latter would be to look at how many people uploaded, but stopped participating after one or two uploads, those may have indeed missed some feedback or motivation to keep going - or may have found out what we do here just isn't what they are interested in, which is okay as well IMHO.
I'd like to briefly add my view on this - I do not feel we have a major problem here at this time, as I hardly ever found a new uploading wikiloops members profile where I felt the contributions were going in the right direction, but also felt the individual had been overlooked by the community.
From my experience, people who understand what wikiloops is about and dare to add something are likely to be spotted and noticed.
It does of course depend on their choice of track to remix, and I have been preaching newbees should remix active users tracks to get feedback all along.
As a last resort, each one of us veterans can promote some discovered newbees upload via shoutbox, along the lines of "oh, dont miss our new member X on kazoo in track #xyz..." - I've done and seen that in the past, and it helps a lot.
Krasimir wrote:
I just check and from 620 new joiners just 3 adds. So let give them time and support them.It will be better if we can easy select tracks from new joiners. :)
I just check and from 620 new joiners just 3 adds. So let give them time and support them.It will be better if we can easy select tracks from new joiners. :)
Now, this may be correct, but it also needs a bit of explanation.
You guys are talking as if every newbee on wikiloops was a potential uploading candidate.
This is technically correct, but the vast majority of people registerring a wikiloops member account has not done that with the intention to upload. Regardless of the free accounts limitations (which were not in place in the early days), the number of newbees who ended up uploading never exceeded 5%.
There is just more people who can do with a practise backing track than people who home-record and are looking for a collaboration opportunity, it would be wrong to think that split was due to a lack of welcoming culture on wikiloops. A much better approach to measuring the latter would be to look at how many people uploaded, but stopped participating after one or two uploads, those may have indeed missed some feedback or motivation to keep going - or may have found out what we do here just isn't what they are interested in, which is okay as well IMHO.
+5
The suggestion offered of putting together those newbies in a creche was based on only those who have uploaded, not all who register.
The time that can be offered to support new uploading members is limited. When we had fewer contributing members it was relatively easy to give time to uploading newbies.
There is a limit to how much time existing members can give, and it's obvious that only a portion of the new uploaders will stick around when they are getting little/no feedback/support.
We'd like to think that there are no cliques in wikiloops, yet many of us have a lot of players we follow and who follow us, which then means we have little/no time to support new talent or add them to our list of people we follow and devote ever more time to.
The issue is to find a strategy for smooth growth in recognizing that members have limited time and it's not possible for every new talent to be supported by existing members. Having groups of new uploading members support each other (like a school class/year) is simply a suggestion that recognizes a problem. Obviously the problem can also be ignored, but that may also be limiting/discouraging the people you'd like to stick around.
Another way to see this, is to let Wikiloops self regulate by mostly ignoring new uploaders who don't have enough persistence to stick around due to the lack of support and recognition. That then begs the question of whether those persistent types are also good or sensitive musicians? That may invite an interesting (but subjective) examination in looking at the last year's new, regularly posting members, and scrutinizing whether one thinks the degree of musicianship matches that of times with fewer members. It's an uncomfortable proposition. Are we inadvertently discouraging good talent and adding people who are just persistent?
Sorry about this, yet for me (and others?) this is a worthy topic. The suggestion from Bradford is good, yet how many of us will be searching for new members? Will you devote time to seek out further tracks from them or just give them a welcome and that's it? That's happening now by some of us, but there is little/no follow up. It's still an issue of lack of time for most of us. Adding to "active" tracks can work for some new players, yet I've seen some outstanding players also ignored. Personally I try to keep encouraging them, yet many have still not been well supported and some have disappeared.
Growth can't happen from the same older members devoting more time that they haven't got. A strategic answer may be needed that (unfortunately?) recognizes that Groups/Classes/Cliques are a natural progression that comes with growth and larger numbers.
The time that can be offered to support new uploading members is limited. When we had fewer contributing members it was relatively easy to give time to uploading newbies.
There is a limit to how much time existing members can give, and it's obvious that only a portion of the new uploaders will stick around when they are getting little/no feedback/support.
We'd like to think that there are no cliques in wikiloops, yet many of us have a lot of players we follow and who follow us, which then means we have little/no time to support new talent or add them to our list of people we follow and devote ever more time to.
The issue is to find a strategy for smooth growth in recognizing that members have limited time and it's not possible for every new talent to be supported by existing members. Having groups of new uploading members support each other (like a school class/year) is simply a suggestion that recognizes a problem. Obviously the problem can also be ignored, but that may also be limiting/discouraging the people you'd like to stick around.
Another way to see this, is to let Wikiloops self regulate by mostly ignoring new uploaders who don't have enough persistence to stick around due to the lack of support and recognition. That then begs the question of whether those persistent types are also good or sensitive musicians? That may invite an interesting (but subjective) examination in looking at the last year's new, regularly posting members, and scrutinizing whether one thinks the degree of musicianship matches that of times with fewer members. It's an uncomfortable proposition. Are we inadvertently discouraging good talent and adding people who are just persistent?
Sorry about this, yet for me (and others?) this is a worthy topic. The suggestion from Bradford is good, yet how many of us will be searching for new members? Will you devote time to seek out further tracks from them or just give them a welcome and that's it? That's happening now by some of us, but there is little/no follow up. It's still an issue of lack of time for most of us. Adding to "active" tracks can work for some new players, yet I've seen some outstanding players also ignored. Personally I try to keep encouraging them, yet many have still not been well supported and some have disappeared.
Growth can't happen from the same older members devoting more time that they haven't got. A strategic answer may be needed that (unfortunately?) recognizes that Groups/Classes/Cliques are a natural progression that comes with growth and larger numbers.
+1
Wade, you are once again defining something as a problem like you have done several times in the past, but then you are trying to convince me and others that it was my or wikiloops problem, and that there was need for action.
I don't need to be told about group dynamics being a "natural progression that comes with growth and larger numbers", I believe I am very aware of that, which is why I will take strategic decisions that do not rely on the same older members devoting more time.
If your problem is that you have found a niche and a group of players and feel you are missing new people, then Bradfords suggestion will help you solve that.
If you do not have the time, then that is OK, too, as nobody demanded you'd have to spend time on that.
If I was under the impression that wikiloops was not gaining enough "persisting" members as you label them, then I'd address this, and yes, I'd start by analyzing the numbers carefully before jumping to conclusions.
I'll let you know if any assistance is needed with that, but I'd most likely start with very basic technical tweaks like the ones Bradford suggested.
No need for escape pods or erratic actionism, some well placed informational pointers for the newbees and applying some social engineering strategies might as well solve the "problem", if the statistics prove it exists.
I rather read the relatively new members own stories and perceptions on how inclusion in the community worked and felt to them then reading your repeated predictions of how wikiloops is in trouble deep. I don't think it is.
I don't need to be told about group dynamics being a "natural progression that comes with growth and larger numbers", I believe I am very aware of that, which is why I will take strategic decisions that do not rely on the same older members devoting more time.
If your problem is that you have found a niche and a group of players and feel you are missing new people, then Bradfords suggestion will help you solve that.
If you do not have the time, then that is OK, too, as nobody demanded you'd have to spend time on that.
If I was under the impression that wikiloops was not gaining enough "persisting" members as you label them, then I'd address this, and yes, I'd start by analyzing the numbers carefully before jumping to conclusions.
I'll let you know if any assistance is needed with that, but I'd most likely start with very basic technical tweaks like the ones Bradford suggested.
No need for escape pods or erratic actionism, some well placed informational pointers for the newbees and applying some social engineering strategies might as well solve the "problem", if the statistics prove it exists.
I rather read the relatively new members own stories and perceptions on how inclusion in the community worked and felt to them then reading your repeated predictions of how wikiloops is in trouble deep. I don't think it is.
+2
No deep trouble, just the potential for the loss of new members. Your site, so not my problem. Also easy for me to refrain from giving feedback if it's seen as something more than an effort to assist in throwing around ideas for discussion.
I'll just enjoy my "honking" and leave the rest out.
I'll just enjoy my "honking" and leave the rest out.
+1
Wade I know you made a typo and meant to say "Our Site"...
Just generally speaking …
In musical environments there will always be “cliques”. It is normal human behavior to group with those you feel a bond with. One of wikiloops best features to me has always been you feel like you’re playing with friends. I have my clique but am very careful not to say out loud “my drummer or my bassist” but I do have particular musicians I feel are “my main peeps I can count on “. Doesn’t mean I don’t want work with an aspiring singer or bassist just joining . Let’s hear your chops. Also doesnt mean anyone cant cross over and belong to or jam with multiple groups.
I don’t ever think I have ever seen a newb who made any sort of honest attempt to join in get shut out or discouraged deliberately . Quite the opposite . Ive seen very advanced musicians go out of their way to encourage someone starting out.
If they are not exactly finding their niche it’s usually from the either not returning the courtesy and complimenting others, or else theees a lack of self awareness they are technically posting low volume adds or their instrument recording is on the poor side with no promise of improvement anytime soon.
That’s not against them as a person but most cliques are together and sounding good and usually have the minimal sound quality going on.They are a polished act . There’s a chemistry you have to take into account that a lot of people are oblivious to.
No different than being in a real life band .
No different then starting a new job and understanding the dynamic of your coworkers to fit in.
Wikiloops best quality for me .
But my point is , if we were all a big group of standby musicians together in real life at a recording studio , there would still be cliques and tight little groups . That doesn’t mean those cliques are closed to a new person joining the party . Newbs should be showing they have something to offer the "team" and the "Team " responds by listening and saying "Gee that person understands what we are doing , Definitley want to hear more"...
Thats usually what happens.
I havent seen any "Mean Girls" clubs .
It’s a two way street though.
Its been called "Payin Your Dues" in the past.
Life isnt fair, so some people pay less dues then others and fit in faster.
Its no different then starting a new job at a place you are excited to start working at.
Theres a team and you as the new person are going to be a newb for awhile and theres a team dynamic you will be trying to fit into once you understand what that team dynamic is.
But at he end of the day....The best treatment of Newbs will always be : "Dont be afraid to jump in anywhere and just have fun. If you like someones music, let them know it.""
You can always tell the ones who dont feel the need to get to know the people behind the music. Which is fine but if getting comments and likes is their goal...it isnt going to end well.
Just generally speaking …
In musical environments there will always be “cliques”. It is normal human behavior to group with those you feel a bond with. One of wikiloops best features to me has always been you feel like you’re playing with friends. I have my clique but am very careful not to say out loud “my drummer or my bassist” but I do have particular musicians I feel are “my main peeps I can count on “. Doesn’t mean I don’t want work with an aspiring singer or bassist just joining . Let’s hear your chops. Also doesnt mean anyone cant cross over and belong to or jam with multiple groups.
I don’t ever think I have ever seen a newb who made any sort of honest attempt to join in get shut out or discouraged deliberately . Quite the opposite . Ive seen very advanced musicians go out of their way to encourage someone starting out.
If they are not exactly finding their niche it’s usually from the either not returning the courtesy and complimenting others, or else theees a lack of self awareness they are technically posting low volume adds or their instrument recording is on the poor side with no promise of improvement anytime soon.
That’s not against them as a person but most cliques are together and sounding good and usually have the minimal sound quality going on.They are a polished act . There’s a chemistry you have to take into account that a lot of people are oblivious to.
No different than being in a real life band .
No different then starting a new job and understanding the dynamic of your coworkers to fit in.
Wikiloops best quality for me .
But my point is , if we were all a big group of standby musicians together in real life at a recording studio , there would still be cliques and tight little groups . That doesn’t mean those cliques are closed to a new person joining the party . Newbs should be showing they have something to offer the "team" and the "Team " responds by listening and saying "Gee that person understands what we are doing , Definitley want to hear more"...
Thats usually what happens.
I havent seen any "Mean Girls" clubs .
It’s a two way street though.
Its been called "Payin Your Dues" in the past.
Life isnt fair, so some people pay less dues then others and fit in faster.
Its no different then starting a new job at a place you are excited to start working at.
Theres a team and you as the new person are going to be a newb for awhile and theres a team dynamic you will be trying to fit into once you understand what that team dynamic is.
But at he end of the day....The best treatment of Newbs will always be : "Dont be afraid to jump in anywhere and just have fun. If you like someones music, let them know it.""
You can always tell the ones who dont feel the need to get to know the people behind the music. Which is fine but if getting comments and likes is their goal...it isnt going to end well.
+2
Hmm, this has once again turned into a discussion I almost regret starting. Only thing I wanted to do was to try to understand the remark seriouss made by contrasting it to my own experience.
Sometimes I`m just curious to understand how others perceive the world, without needing to do anything about it.
Sometimes I`m just curious to understand how others perceive the world, without needing to do anything about it.
+2
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Hello,
I'm not sure I understand this whole debate. Things seem simple to me.
1 - Most of the time, we enter wikiloops because we're looking for someone to play with.
2 - You realise that there are people behind it all.
3 - After trying it out as a free member, becoming a full member becomes essential if interest grows.
4 - As in life and on stage, recognition is only as good as the interest and work you put into it. But you should only see yourself as a building block. If all you're looking for is recognition, you're better off doing concerts.
5 - The best debates you can have on wikiloops are above all musical, and that's where the fun lies.
6 - Isn't it great to be able to do this with musicians of varying value? It doesn't matter how good, wikiloops makes it possible. Trying to become famous in wikiloops is a mistake, you end up like a dwarf shouting in a crowd of giants.
7 - You can have all the good intentions in the world, some will be frustrated others delighted and it only depends on each person who joins the party. I'd like to make it clear that I've never felt slighted, which isn't the case elsewhere... so thank you all for being so kind and pleasant.
The main thing is to overcome your fears and reservations and PLAY!
As far as I'm concerned, if just one person notices me, I'm delighted. It's already a joy to be able to play with others, even if I don't feel up to it.
Best regards to all
I'm not sure I understand this whole debate. Things seem simple to me.
1 - Most of the time, we enter wikiloops because we're looking for someone to play with.
2 - You realise that there are people behind it all.
3 - After trying it out as a free member, becoming a full member becomes essential if interest grows.
4 - As in life and on stage, recognition is only as good as the interest and work you put into it. But you should only see yourself as a building block. If all you're looking for is recognition, you're better off doing concerts.
5 - The best debates you can have on wikiloops are above all musical, and that's where the fun lies.
6 - Isn't it great to be able to do this with musicians of varying value? It doesn't matter how good, wikiloops makes it possible. Trying to become famous in wikiloops is a mistake, you end up like a dwarf shouting in a crowd of giants.
7 - You can have all the good intentions in the world, some will be frustrated others delighted and it only depends on each person who joins the party. I'd like to make it clear that I've never felt slighted, which isn't the case elsewhere... so thank you all for being so kind and pleasant.
The main thing is to overcome your fears and reservations and PLAY!
As far as I'm concerned, if just one person notices me, I'm delighted. It's already a joy to be able to play with others, even if I don't feel up to it.
Best regards to all
+6
MySounds wrote:
Hmm, this has once again turned into a discussion I almost regret starting. Only thing I wanted to do was to try to understand the remark seriouss made by contrasting it to my own experience.
Sometimes I`m just curious to understand how others perceive the world, without needing to do anything about it.
Hmm, this has once again turned into a discussion I almost regret starting. Only thing I wanted to do was to try to understand the remark seriouss made by contrasting it to my own experience.
Sometimes I`m just curious to understand how others perceive the world, without needing to do anything about it.
Sorry I couldnt resist adding my own 2 cents. That'll teach you.
Sorry I couldnt resist adding my own 2 cents. That'll teach you.
Wasn`t aimed at you, but hey, lesson learned :D
+1
MySounds wrote:
Wasn`t aimed at you, but hey, lesson learned :D
Sorry I couldnt resist adding my own 2 cents. That'll teach you.
Wasn`t aimed at you, but hey, lesson learned :D
Its best not to encourage me.Im kind of like the 200 lb gorilla they tell you not to feed peanuts too.
+2
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LittleWing wrote: Its best not to encourage me. Im kind of like the 200 lb gorilla they tell you not to feed peanuts too.
....in the wild :D :D :D
+2
LittleWing wrote:
Its best not to encourage me.Im kind of like the 200 lb gorilla they tell you not to feed peanuts too.
MySounds wrote:
Wasn`t aimed at you, but hey, lesson learned :D
Sorry I couldnt resist adding my own 2 cents. That'll teach you.
Wasn`t aimed at you, but hey, lesson learned :D
Its best not to encourage me.Im kind of like the 200 lb gorilla they tell you not to feed peanuts too.
At home, (Pyrenees- France) it's the bears...110kg, peanuts and pastis (aniseed drink) 🐻🐻🐻😜
+2
I don't think a distinction between newbie and oldie is needed or helpful. If anything, it sounds like something that might lead to additional fear/uncertainty to contributing ("am I, as a newbie, even qualified/allowed/expected/... to contribute to this wonderful track I'm hearing?"). If a newbie only posts original tracks (in some cases fully arranged, leaving little opening to additions), there's probably a real danger of getting ignored a bit, but then such tracks do not fully align with what this site is all about. In my experience it seldom happens that someone adds a remix and gets zero comments on it (remixing old tracks might be an exception, if the original contributors in the meantime left the site). In my opinion, the best way to go from newbie to oldie is to just jump in the water and go with the flow.
+2
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