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Before and after: Learning about polishing tracks prior upload
Before and after: Learning about polishing tracks prior upload
SUPPORTER
Posts: 310
Joined: 19 mars 2022
Wish I had realized much earlier how much of an impact some "post-recording-polishing" can have.
Take the After Dark-Before the Light track #262031 on which JP created something I really enjoyed playing to...only to realize weeks after uploading my bass part how rotten the overall sound had become. So I spent some time tinkerring with various mixing and mastering tools and et voila, I will feel much less embarrassed in future.
The attached track starts with a 11sec segment of the polished version and then chaanges every 9 secs between old and new.
Same recording, only difference is that I applied a channel strip to JP and my parts and did some basic settings on a multichannel EQ. Rather than uploading as soon as possible, I think in future I`ll spend more time on caring about the sound and creating a better foundation for others to join in.
MySounds attached the following file:
cleaning up the mix.mp3
Take the After Dark-Before the Light track #262031 on which JP created something I really enjoyed playing to...only to realize weeks after uploading my bass part how rotten the overall sound had become. So I spent some time tinkerring with various mixing and mastering tools and et voila, I will feel much less embarrassed in future.
The attached track starts with a 11sec segment of the polished version and then chaanges every 9 secs between old and new.
Same recording, only difference is that I applied a channel strip to JP and my parts and did some basic settings on a multichannel EQ. Rather than uploading as soon as possible, I think in future I`ll spend more time on caring about the sound and creating a better foundation for others to join in.
MySounds attached the following file:
cleaning up the mix.mp3
+1
Membre
Posts: 50
Joined: 15 sept. 2015
Mixing the bass can be a really troubeling task. My current approach is that I route all melodies to a mixer track and set a low cut around 50-130 hz. Second the sound of the bass should be tight (compressed, not too much high end) and not muddy. I've listened to your audio file and you're right, the difference in clarity is remarkable. You've took away all the mudiness and let the mids and highs shine but what I've noticed is that the bass is quite missing. If you analyze the track with an EQ that is even more visible. A solution to solve this issue would be probably to add your bass line once more (with slight volume) and set an high cut on it (around 70 hz or whatever sounds good) that would boost the low end but don't re-mud your mids and high-end again.
+1
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SUPPORTER
Posts: 665
Joined: 19 sept. 2018
You should also be aware of "Dithering.
Often times you mix and mix and mix and finally have something you feel is a good bass mix.
You upload and a day or two later ...it seems like your bass is washed away and fading out. Another few days and its like "Wheres the bass I recorded?". Try explaining that to non bassists and they think youre crazy but the uploaded mix actually changes and removes your bass.
Dithering is basically adding a background noise in the mix on the low end to keep the audio from collapsing once its loaded online. You are not crazy and there is some sort of reasoning for it.
Think of it as "protecting your bass mixes integrity".
When I first joined Wikiloops this was a huge problem for me and I almost gave up. Anything I uploaded with bass was inaudible a few days later.
It is especially a problem with Audacity for some reason.It is and you are not crazy.
Listen to any older track you recorded. When you uploaded it , you thought it was the crispest, most cleanest best mix yet. But a year or two later and it sounds faded and "old".Thats not your ears playing tricks on you. It really did "fade".
I currently use Waves l3 limiter and it adds a dither and Reaper also dithers when rendering the track.
Just keep that in mind if you feel your bass is "disappearing"or "changing" over time.
Currently Im experimenting with bass. I have a P and a J bass.
Im going thru a Neve RDNI direct box straight into the interface for a clean DI . I eq the low frequencies below 250 HZ to pop out. HP at 80 , boost 120, boost 187.Anything above 187 is either blocked by a low pass filter or set flat.
The signal also goes thru the Neve RDNI and creates a second channel which goes thru an EBS Valve Drive which is a preamp then goes into Interface. This is EQd for high end: Dip at 250 to get rid of mud, boost at whatever brings out D and G strings.Anything below 187 is Hi pass filtered or set flat.
This second track is where you can go thru an amp or use an amp VST. Its the hi end D and G string enhanced track.
I then mix the E and A enhanced track with the D and G string enhanced track creating a mono track . The mono track is whats used in the mix.
Been getting awesome clear bass.
using the neve RDNI was quite an education . You can google the reasoning bvehind that specific model and wehy Im using a direct box at all as opposed to just plugging straight into the interface.
Also Hi Pass Filters are essential. While a setting of 40 is adequate, most pro recordings will add a Hi Pass as High as 80 hz.My instinct doubted this setting but it does work.
I got that trick from watching a Sean Hurley video and its his bass recording setup.
Ive come to the conclusion the secret to clear bass in mixes is in crossover frequencies. Processing the E and A strings different then the D and G strings.
Chris Squire was a pioneer in recording that way as well as if you look at the rigs of alot of pro bassists youll see they own alot of multiband compressors which will compress hi's and lows differently.
The P bass, the most recorded bass in history is popular because it splits the E and A into one pickup and D and G into the other.
Im still experimenting but Im starting to really believe the key to that magic recorded bass sound lies in a crossover and treating the bottom two strings different then the top two strings.
I also am a firm believer in going "balanced output" (Microphone XLR ) into the interface for best even signal.
Until recently I couldnt wrap my head around why I even needed a direct box to record bass. To me , DI's were for live situations. They buffer and clean up the signal and provide the proper amount of headroom on the bass signal. Especially the mid ranges which is whats lost in mixes most time. Geddy Lee uses an Avalon, Almost all studio bassists use Noble or Countryman and are the bassists Holy Grail. Then there is the affordable Neve RDNI. Its something to look into. If you cant afford a good one, TC Electronics make a pedal called a "buffer" that recovers lost signal from your cables that makes a huge noticeable audio difference recording bass.
[img]https://media.rainpos.com/5730/s678266389395081639_p1652_i1_w2560.png[/img]
[img]https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/9b1bdd17-1bf9-47a7-8a60-915ffb98a8c0-jpeg.4014397/[/img]
This explains why even bother using a DI for home recording. He plugs in the bass at 8:13 in the video.
[youtube]BpyAYA0fB4c[/youtube]
Additionally using multiband or Optical compressors also enhance that bass signal to sit well. Optical compressors add a transparency to the bass. Multi bands split the bass into two differently compressed signals : E and A & D and g
Often times you mix and mix and mix and finally have something you feel is a good bass mix.
You upload and a day or two later ...it seems like your bass is washed away and fading out. Another few days and its like "Wheres the bass I recorded?". Try explaining that to non bassists and they think youre crazy but the uploaded mix actually changes and removes your bass.
Dithering is basically adding a background noise in the mix on the low end to keep the audio from collapsing once its loaded online. You are not crazy and there is some sort of reasoning for it.
Think of it as "protecting your bass mixes integrity".
When I first joined Wikiloops this was a huge problem for me and I almost gave up. Anything I uploaded with bass was inaudible a few days later.
It is especially a problem with Audacity for some reason.It is and you are not crazy.
Listen to any older track you recorded. When you uploaded it , you thought it was the crispest, most cleanest best mix yet. But a year or two later and it sounds faded and "old".Thats not your ears playing tricks on you. It really did "fade".
I currently use Waves l3 limiter and it adds a dither and Reaper also dithers when rendering the track.
Just keep that in mind if you feel your bass is "disappearing"or "changing" over time.
Currently Im experimenting with bass. I have a P and a J bass.
Im going thru a Neve RDNI direct box straight into the interface for a clean DI . I eq the low frequencies below 250 HZ to pop out. HP at 80 , boost 120, boost 187.Anything above 187 is either blocked by a low pass filter or set flat.
The signal also goes thru the Neve RDNI and creates a second channel which goes thru an EBS Valve Drive which is a preamp then goes into Interface. This is EQd for high end: Dip at 250 to get rid of mud, boost at whatever brings out D and G strings.Anything below 187 is Hi pass filtered or set flat.
This second track is where you can go thru an amp or use an amp VST. Its the hi end D and G string enhanced track.
I then mix the E and A enhanced track with the D and G string enhanced track creating a mono track . The mono track is whats used in the mix.
Been getting awesome clear bass.
using the neve RDNI was quite an education . You can google the reasoning bvehind that specific model and wehy Im using a direct box at all as opposed to just plugging straight into the interface.
Also Hi Pass Filters are essential. While a setting of 40 is adequate, most pro recordings will add a Hi Pass as High as 80 hz.My instinct doubted this setting but it does work.
I got that trick from watching a Sean Hurley video and its his bass recording setup.
Ive come to the conclusion the secret to clear bass in mixes is in crossover frequencies. Processing the E and A strings different then the D and G strings.
Chris Squire was a pioneer in recording that way as well as if you look at the rigs of alot of pro bassists youll see they own alot of multiband compressors which will compress hi's and lows differently.
The P bass, the most recorded bass in history is popular because it splits the E and A into one pickup and D and G into the other.
Im still experimenting but Im starting to really believe the key to that magic recorded bass sound lies in a crossover and treating the bottom two strings different then the top two strings.
I also am a firm believer in going "balanced output" (Microphone XLR ) into the interface for best even signal.
Until recently I couldnt wrap my head around why I even needed a direct box to record bass. To me , DI's were for live situations. They buffer and clean up the signal and provide the proper amount of headroom on the bass signal. Especially the mid ranges which is whats lost in mixes most time. Geddy Lee uses an Avalon, Almost all studio bassists use Noble or Countryman and are the bassists Holy Grail. Then there is the affordable Neve RDNI. Its something to look into. If you cant afford a good one, TC Electronics make a pedal called a "buffer" that recovers lost signal from your cables that makes a huge noticeable audio difference recording bass.
[img]https://media.rainpos.com/5730/s678266389395081639_p1652_i1_w2560.png[/img]
[img]https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/9b1bdd17-1bf9-47a7-8a60-915ffb98a8c0-jpeg.4014397/[/img]
This explains why even bother using a DI for home recording. He plugs in the bass at 8:13 in the video.
[youtube]BpyAYA0fB4c[/youtube]
Additionally using multiband or Optical compressors also enhance that bass signal to sit well. Optical compressors add a transparency to the bass. Multi bands split the bass into two differently compressed signals : E and A & D and g
+2
SUPPORTER
Posts: 310
Joined: 19 mars 2022
That`s extremely helpful. I think I need to develop a test plan until I get the 2 or 3 different sounds I have in mind - and make them stick in the mix.
One thing I discovered that`s given me headaches is that I run the Boss bass effects processor unit before the DI and that even if I turn all settings to zero, the signal is still different compared to pluging the bass directly in the DI. That does seem to have a massive impact on the EQ settings (and what they deliver) in the DAW.
Friend of mine had the same problem and is now a great believer in recording dry only and then routing the signal back from the track in the DAW through the effects and putting the return signal on a separate track. For whatever reason the result is that he always gets a stable reliable sound and only has to fiddle with the wet track.
One thing I discovered that`s given me headaches is that I run the Boss bass effects processor unit before the DI and that even if I turn all settings to zero, the signal is still different compared to pluging the bass directly in the DI. That does seem to have a massive impact on the EQ settings (and what they deliver) in the DAW.
Friend of mine had the same problem and is now a great believer in recording dry only and then routing the signal back from the track in the DAW through the effects and putting the return signal on a separate track. For whatever reason the result is that he always gets a stable reliable sound and only has to fiddle with the wet track.
+1
SUPPORTER
Posts: 665
Joined: 19 sept. 2018
I am never happy with any bass I record so far. I know people with cheap basses that just plug in and go and it always sounds great. Other basses ...its always washed away in the mix.
Another thing I overlooked that helps is changing phase.Flipping the signal 180 degrees. Basically instead of sounding like you are standing in front of the bass cab, you are standing at the rear of the speaker cab. I have that ability to do it to a track in Reaper and I also can do it on my preamp. That makes a difference. It works but I shouldnt have to do that.So Im back to hours and hours of recording experiments in search for "my bass sound".
After watching hours of Youtube vids, the only thing Im 100% certain when it comes to bass is:
1.Keep it simple. Try to get one mono bass track sounding good with no effects. Only use gain for the volume level.
2. Monitor that track thru the DAW. Do not listen to any signal from an external amp. Only monitor from the track. NO Effects. It should sound great before doing anything else using absolutley no plug ins.
3.Make sure the bass is setup properly, pickups at proper height...etc.... Eliminate any boominess
4.If 1,2, and 3 are not all satisfactory do not even proceed any further. Go back and solve all these issues.
As for the DI before preamp question : I go straight thru the Neve DI on track one , then there is a "thru" jack I route the signal back out , thru the Valve preamp and an FEA Labs optical compressor (Compressor before preamp)for tone adjustment then back in track 2.
The two tracks are given their own EQ then routed to Track 3 which is both tracks mixed.I mute Track 1 and Track 2 so they can only be heard in Track 3.
Ive been the double the bass signal route and ended up eventually with phase issues. Not a fan of stereo bass in general either. I prefer it mono and center of mix.
The DI then would be before the preamp which is the Sean Hurley setup Im currently experimenting with.
The signals on track one and two are given to the interface with XLR balanced cables. Fatter , more defined signal.
Also- Alot of bass players like "scooping " the midrange on their bass controls.(bass and treble boosted. Midrange dialed back) I am not a fan of that. I prefer mids and do not shy away from them. A producer on some video somewhere said the secret to great mixes is total control of your midrange areas which I find true.
I make sure my bass setup is such that Im not using tone controls to cover another issue like pickups not adjusted correctly so bass is always boomy and muddy unless i kick the treble up. I like the controls to be flat.
Here is the Hurley setup . Hes the bassist for John Mayer and also one of the most popular LA session bassists. Sean brags that when he shows up for a recording session , he hands the engineer a cable and they usually never have to EQ him at all.Hes self sufficient for his sound and the engineers simply just plug him in.The Signal setup starts at 1:56
[youtube]byFsdHYoa-s[/youtube]
The second video is his sound Im going for...This video also is great illustrating what an Optical compressor does and how it makes the bass "transparent".
[youtube]yhCp3xLoZXQ[/youtube]
Good luck. If you find the magic bass recording method or plug in...post it.
You also mentioned you use a channel strip plug in. This involves two Waves channel plug ins (Waves SSL Console, and Sheps 73)but maybe you can take note of the settings used for the EQ. He states you dont need Waves plug ins to do this and can substitute.This was my last method which was decent.
[youtube]zrWA9rglG24[/youtube]
Another thing I overlooked that helps is changing phase.Flipping the signal 180 degrees. Basically instead of sounding like you are standing in front of the bass cab, you are standing at the rear of the speaker cab. I have that ability to do it to a track in Reaper and I also can do it on my preamp. That makes a difference. It works but I shouldnt have to do that.So Im back to hours and hours of recording experiments in search for "my bass sound".
After watching hours of Youtube vids, the only thing Im 100% certain when it comes to bass is:
1.Keep it simple. Try to get one mono bass track sounding good with no effects. Only use gain for the volume level.
2. Monitor that track thru the DAW. Do not listen to any signal from an external amp. Only monitor from the track. NO Effects. It should sound great before doing anything else using absolutley no plug ins.
3.Make sure the bass is setup properly, pickups at proper height...etc.... Eliminate any boominess
4.If 1,2, and 3 are not all satisfactory do not even proceed any further. Go back and solve all these issues.
As for the DI before preamp question : I go straight thru the Neve DI on track one , then there is a "thru" jack I route the signal back out , thru the Valve preamp and an FEA Labs optical compressor (Compressor before preamp)for tone adjustment then back in track 2.
The two tracks are given their own EQ then routed to Track 3 which is both tracks mixed.I mute Track 1 and Track 2 so they can only be heard in Track 3.
Ive been the double the bass signal route and ended up eventually with phase issues. Not a fan of stereo bass in general either. I prefer it mono and center of mix.
The DI then would be before the preamp which is the Sean Hurley setup Im currently experimenting with.
The signals on track one and two are given to the interface with XLR balanced cables. Fatter , more defined signal.
Also- Alot of bass players like "scooping " the midrange on their bass controls.(bass and treble boosted. Midrange dialed back) I am not a fan of that. I prefer mids and do not shy away from them. A producer on some video somewhere said the secret to great mixes is total control of your midrange areas which I find true.
I make sure my bass setup is such that Im not using tone controls to cover another issue like pickups not adjusted correctly so bass is always boomy and muddy unless i kick the treble up. I like the controls to be flat.
Here is the Hurley setup . Hes the bassist for John Mayer and also one of the most popular LA session bassists. Sean brags that when he shows up for a recording session , he hands the engineer a cable and they usually never have to EQ him at all.Hes self sufficient for his sound and the engineers simply just plug him in.The Signal setup starts at 1:56
[youtube]byFsdHYoa-s[/youtube]
The second video is his sound Im going for...This video also is great illustrating what an Optical compressor does and how it makes the bass "transparent".
[youtube]yhCp3xLoZXQ[/youtube]
Good luck. If you find the magic bass recording method or plug in...post it.
You also mentioned you use a channel strip plug in. This involves two Waves channel plug ins (Waves SSL Console, and Sheps 73)but maybe you can take note of the settings used for the EQ. He states you dont need Waves plug ins to do this and can substitute.This was my last method which was decent.
[youtube]zrWA9rglG24[/youtube]
+2
Membre
Posts: 280
Joined: 30 janv. 2021
This is a good topic, bass is tricky, when it sounds good there is less "bass" than you might think? It's well worth the effort because when the bass is controlled there is so much more space for everything else.
Following and agreeing with Littlewing's comment of not being a fan of scooped bass, I found this really great free VST that adds bass harmonics and controls stereo width of low frequencies. Simple to use. If you find your mixes don't translate at the bass end this clever program may solve your problems... or some of them. When your bass seems nice and deep but disappears in the mix, adding some harmonics will bring it out without adding unwanted bass energy. In fact you'll probably find yourself turning it down.
https://www.toneprojects.com/basslane.html
I have no connection to this software other than using it. I've found it's gradually teaching me not to scoop the bass in the first place. lol.
Following and agreeing with Littlewing's comment of not being a fan of scooped bass, I found this really great free VST that adds bass harmonics and controls stereo width of low frequencies. Simple to use. If you find your mixes don't translate at the bass end this clever program may solve your problems... or some of them. When your bass seems nice and deep but disappears in the mix, adding some harmonics will bring it out without adding unwanted bass energy. In fact you'll probably find yourself turning it down.
https://www.toneprojects.com/basslane.html
I have no connection to this software other than using it. I've found it's gradually teaching me not to scoop the bass in the first place. lol.
+1
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barrtrek