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AI on Wikiloops a no-go?

AI on Wikiloops a no-go?

posted on #61
deezee Supporter
Posts: 87
Joined: 2 juil. 2018
Wikiloopers on Band camp

https://sirr.bandcamp.com/album/lonely-robots

He goes under the artist name on band camp SIRR Can't recall his artist name on here at the moment/
.
He puts who else was on the tracks from wikiloops But when you download any as I did one we did together. It's just His artist name SIRR and a link back to bandcamp. I had no idea about this Fact I just came across it by chance..

Not sure which forum it should go in sorry.
+1
posted on #62
DidierS Supporter
Posts: 56
Joined: 18 janv. 2024
I would like to add a document to the file with an (unexpected!) reference to an extract from the French film “Tous les matins du monde”.
It seems to me to be a beautiful allegory about the intimate emotions that Art in general and music in particular can arouse.

For those who have not seen the French film, this extract shows how musical practice makes the deceased wife reappear in the eyes of the master of the viola da gamba Marin Marais (1656 - 1728 French gambist and composer of the Baroque period) who lives almost as a hermit while the king wants his presence at Versailles.

No intellectual tool like AI will be able to provoke such emotions because AI has no emotional intelligence.

Producing sounds with possibly AI is one thing, being a musician and sharing emotional experiences is another.
[youtube]pnriefsHKsQ?si=WVWrUzscZBOV9J1P[/youtube]
+1
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posted on #63
deezee Supporter
Posts: 87
Joined: 2 juil. 2018
DidierS wrote:
I would like to add a document to the file with an (unexpected!) reference to an extract from the French film “Tous les matins du monde”.
It seems to me to be a beautiful allegory about the intimate emotions that Art in general and music in particular can arouse.

For those who have not seen the French film, this extract shows how musical practice makes the deceased wife reappear in the eyes of the master of the viola da gamba Marin Marais (1656 - 1728 French gambist and composer of the Baroque period) who lives almost as a hermit while the king wants his presence at Versailles.

No intellectual tool like AI will be able to provoke such emotions because AI has no emotional intelligence.

Producing sounds with possibly AI is one thing, being a musician and sharing emotional experiences is another.
[youtube]pnriefsHKsQ?si=WVWrUzscZBOV9J1P[/youtube]


Nearly all of my Ambient instrumental 'OWN' experimental compositions especially my early ones ongoing from 2008 was played on my keyboard when I felt suicidal. I discovered music. After ringing the samaritans up one night after many long harrowing years crying my eyes out in utter despair - I wanted to kill myself!! It's music that saved my life. If I play an ambient composition. It's usually because i'm feeling a bit down. I put all my emotions into my music. I'm happier than I've ever been now.
I'm not a proper musician I never said I was...
+6
posted on #64
deezee Supporter
Posts: 87
Joined: 2 juil. 2018
Maybe there is room for Ai after all:o

https://www.wikiloops.com/backingtrack-jam-294761

https://www.wikiloops.com/backingtrack-jam-294834

2 lovely artist remixes off my Bible upload

Awesome thanks again guys Kucho & Josep I love them :)
+1
posted on #65
Krasimir Supporter
Posts: 196
Joined: 24 janv. 2016
Yes all new things should be considered, but with careful review. Any how Al is just helping tool. B)
+2
posted on #66
Wade Supporter
Posts: 523
Joined: 25 nov. 2013
Krasimir wrote:
Yes all new things should be considered, but with careful review. Any how Al is just helping tool. B)


AI is designed to be a replacement for musicians and composers. It is not designed as a "helping tool". It may be that some here are trying to think of it and use it that way, however it's (to my mind) impossible to define the level of "help". If it's here at all then it will take a huge amount of someone's time to police this so that we aren't flooded with AI tracks. In one recent case it was the member's lyrics that were used, but what we hear is 100% computer generated band and vocals. How do you distinguish this from someone who only gave AI instructions of "pop tune with sad lyrics 3 minutes long"? They push the go button and have however many songs they want come up ready to post.

Please think about this as All I'm hearing from those that wish to have AI here is how they wish to use it without a thought as to what the consequences might be for the site, or how "limited" use could happen without a huge amount of time for policing this. In the example given the moderator would need to somehow find a way to establish that the member wrote the lyrics first. How do you do that? You could just give your instructions to AI, copy the lyrics they provide, post them on the site, then post the AI track a few days later. If you think this isn't likely or possible think again.

We have had taggers here that just wanted their name on as many tracks as possible. We also have had members who brought copyright material here and posted it as their own. There are potentially millions of people who would like to push a button and have music come out the other end that they put their name to.

AI requires banning as it's impossible for me to see how this can be monitored, and the examples that have already shown up make this obvious. The alternative is for this site to be no different/better than all the other sites that will tolerate AI. If that happens I can guarantee you that many/most will abandon Wikiloops. Someone ( one of us?) will then develop a site that will ban all AI and cater to musicians who wish to continue to work together to make REAL music.

Once again think about this folks. Do you wish to publish your tracks on a site where you may have had some input, but it's really an AI track and whatever that's real about your track is swamped by thousands of AI tracks that are just from button pushers? If you are at heart a musician first, the answer should be obvious.
+5
posted on #67
Wade Supporter
Posts: 523
Joined: 25 nov. 2013
DidierS wrote:
I would like to add a document to the file with an (unexpected!) reference to an extract from the French film “Tous les matins du monde”.
It seems to me to be a beautiful allegory about the intimate emotions that Art in general and music in particular can arouse.

For those who have not seen the French film, this extract shows how musical practice makes the deceased wife reappear in the eyes of the master of the viola da gamba Marin Marais (1656 - 1728 French gambist and composer of the Baroque period) who lives almost as a hermit while the king wants his presence at Versailles.

No intellectual tool like AI will be able to provoke such emotions because AI has no emotional intelligence.



Producing sounds with possibly AI is one thing, being a musician and sharing emotional experiences is another.
[youtube]pnriefsHKsQ?si=WVWrUzscZBOV9J1P[/youtube]

One of my all time favorite movies with sublime music. Thank you for reminding me of this exquisite film and how AI can never achieve this level of creativity and sensitivity.
+2
posted on #68
zedders Supporter
Posts: 245
Joined: 30 janv. 2021
deezee wrote:

I'm not a proper musician I never said I was...

(Me neither, though I tried when I was younger)

But, but, but you are one of the most creative people on the loops. Creativity trumps musicianship in my world. I know AI is fun to play with, but ... using AI in place of your creativity would be a big loss to the loops. Opening a Dorothy upload is like opening a present, I have no idea what will be inside and I love that. without the creatives such as yourself sparking the "musicians" it could be endless 12 bar blues here.

------------------------------

That's how I see it anyway - Loops is a place for human imagination to express itself unfettered by commercial concerns and current fashions. Allowing AI "creativity" to replace human creativity? Might as well call it a day and shut the site down as it would have no purpose.
+3
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posted on #69
josepssv Supporter
Posts: 102
Joined: 21 sept. 2013
It could be
Promoting tools with artificial intelligence in Wikiloops or subsidised tools that facilitate "EMOTION" and "SHARING"
+1
posted on #70
deezee Supporter
Posts: 87
Joined: 2 juil. 2018
zedders wrote:
deezee wrote:

I'm not a proper musician I never said I was...

(Me neither, though I tried when I was younger)

But, but, but you are one of the most creative people on the loops. Creativity trumps musicianship in my world. I know AI is fun to play with, but ... using AI in place of your creativity would be a big loss to the loops. Opening a Dorothy upload is like opening a present, I have no idea what will be inside and I love that. without the creatives such as yourself sparking the "musicians" it could be endless 12 bar blues here.

------------------------------

That's how I see it anyway - Loops is a place for human imagination to express itself unfettered by commercial concerns and current fashions. Allowing AI "creativity" to replace human creativity? Might as well call it a day and shut the site down as it would have no purpose.


Aww , zedders that's an awesome comment really cheered me up.:D Thank you for that.
That's the nicest thing I've heard in a long time said about my music.:o
I love your music:o Your so right and makes a lot of sense...<3
+3
posted on #71
MySounds Supporter
Posts: 178
Joined: 19 mars 2022
Can I just point out a couple of flawed arguments I`ve read here?

- The current quality (or lack thereof) of AI generated music doesn`t matter. AI will improve exponentionally. Just compare to what Suno was capable of in January 2024 (their first public release version) with their May 2024 release. If that learning curve continues you will not be able to distinguish AI generated music from real music by 2025.

- Wikiloops works only by consent of its members. We can have as many rules as we like but people will only follow those rules they accept and ignore the others. So, having a rule that says "no AI" is meaningless unless ALL members understand that rule to be an expression of a common understanding. And I bet such a rule would be broken as soon as it is written (and no one would even notice by 2025).

- Here`s my doom and gloom point: This discussion is between people who have musical abilities. They can play an instrument (that includes voice) and are able to integrate their abilities into a set of abilities from other members. They are musicians with a creative streak.

That is very different from someone who is creative and happens to produce music! In fact it turns the process on its head: We play something and can then describe it to others (soothing, Floyd style, solo guitar with strat sound). With AI it`s completely the opposite: We feed the target description of the intended output into the machine and it creates the input. That is akin to making it acceptable to rob a bank. If the end is more important than the means, then anything goes. So who would care if you robbed a bank to get your millions as long as your applauded for being rich?

Now, if AI music will become predominant in the coming years just think of the musical environment a now 10 year old kid will grow up in. What will be the norm for him?

- With these negative thoughts in mind, I don`t think any sort of appeal to be "responsible" when using AI in music or to refrain from using it at all stands any chance. Where I do see a big opportunity for Wikiloops (as an example) is to be a sanctuary of transparency where the use of AI is tolerated but made explicitly clear.

- Let`s not force people to become dishonest and hide their AI use. Personally I would not want to put people like Dorothy into a position where she would need to decide between not using AI or leaving Wikiloops. If change is required, why don`t we start thinking about making better use of ourselves instead of bringing in outside technology to achieve the same goals??? If Dorothy wants to hear her lyrics sung - and I myself do want to hear her lyrics sung - I rather spend time thinking about how we can improve the uptake of her lyrical offering by vocalists on Wikiloops.

I have had it pointed out to me that a couple of years ago the interaction between members was more intense, that people sat down remotely to jointly work on tracks, that there was a much more in-depth collaboration. If we can find ways to achieve that again, I`d be much happier and more positive about the future.
posted on #72
deezee Supporter
Posts: 87
Joined: 2 juil. 2018
MySounds wrote:
Can I just point out a couple of flawed arguments I`ve read here?

- The current quality (or lack thereof) of AI generated music doesn`t matter. AI will improve exponentionally. Just compare to what Suno was capable of in January 2024 (their first public release version) with their May 2024 release. If that learning curve continues you will not be able to distinguish AI generated music from real music by 2025.

- Wikiloops works only by consent of its members. We can have as many rules as we like but people will only follow those rules they accept and ignore the others. So, having a rule that says "no AI" is meaningless unless ALL members understand that rule to be an expression of a common understanding. And I bet such a rule would be broken as soon as it is written (and no one would even notice by 2025).

- Here`s my doom and gloom point: This discussion is between people who have musical abilities. They can play an instrument (that includes voice) and are able to integrate their abilities into a set of abilities from other members. They are musicians with a creative streak.

That is very different from someone who is creative and happens to produce music! In fact it turns the process on its head: We play something and can then describe it to others (soothing, Floyd style, solo guitar with strat sound). With AI it`s completely the opposite: We feed the target description of the intended output into the machine and it creates the input. That is akin to making it acceptable to rob a bank. If the end is more important than the means, then anything goes. So who would care if you robbed a bank to get your millions as long as your applauded for being rich?

Now, if AI music will become predominant in the coming years just think of the musical environment a now 10 year old kid will grow up in. What will be the norm for him?

- With these negative thoughts in mind, I don`t think any sort of appeal to be "responsible" when using AI in music or to refrain from using it at all stands any chance. Where I do see a big opportunity for Wikiloops (as an example) is to be a sanctuary of transparency where the use of AI is tolerated but made explicitly clear.

- Let`s not force people to become dishonest and hide their AI use. Personally I would not want to put people like Dorothy into a position where she would need to decide between not using AI or leaving Wikiloops. If change is required, why don`t we start thinking about making better use of ourselves instead of bringing in outside technology to achieve the same goals??? If Dorothy wants to hear her lyrics sung - and I myself do want to hear her lyrics sung - I rather spend time thinking about how we can improve the uptake of her lyrical offering by vocalists on Wikiloops.

I have had it pointed out to me that a couple of years ago the interaction between members was more intense, that people sat down remotely to jointly work on tracks, that there was a much more in-depth collaboration. If we can find ways to achieve that again, I`d be much happier and more positive about the future.



Thomas, To be honest you got my back up with your disgust at my awesome Island Vibe track that I works so hard on :D:D:D (Not)
but it was only put up for a bit of fun That was my very first Ai one..
Your verdict

MySounds
Here is the vote from the MySounds jury: Creativity: dix points love; Emotional response: zero points angry. Think I`ll vent my disgust (at myself) in the forum tomorrow.
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posted on #73
MySounds Supporter
Posts: 178
Joined: 19 mars 2022
deezee wrote:

Thomas, To be honest you got my back up with your disgust at my awesome Island Vibe track that I works so hard on :D:D:D (Not)
but it was only put up for a bit of fun That was my very first Ai one..
Your verdict

MySounds
Here is the vote from the MySounds jury: Creativity: dix points love; Emotional response: zero points angry. Think I`ll vent my disgust (at myself) in the forum tomorrow.


I know that you were hurt by my comment and I already apologised and tried to explain.
And I think you know that the comment was not aimed at you personally, but at AI and my reaction to it.

As I said in my first post in this thread: This is my problem, not yours or anybody elses. Your example just made some "fears" I have about de-humanizing tendencies in general and Wikiloops in particular very clear to me. And frankly, the more I believe (as I do) that the lyrics you wrote were personal and important to you, the bigger the schism.

I know that my reaction and my arguments are illogical and 100% emotional.

Island Vibe is a great demo of a songwriter and lyricist to show what you would hope the "human" version to sound like. And it deserves a singer who is able to transport the emotions of the lyrics. But I need to the able to believe. And I can`t.
posted on #74
deezee Supporter
Posts: 87
Joined: 2 juil. 2018
MySounds wrote:
deezee wrote:

Thomas, To be honest you got my back up with your disgust at my awesome Island Vibe track that I works so hard on :D:D:D (Not)
but it was only put up for a bit of fun That was my very first Ai one..
Your verdict

MySounds
Here is the vote from the MySounds jury: Creativity: dix points love; Emotional response: zero points angry. Think I`ll vent my disgust (at myself) in the forum tomorrow.


I know that you were hurt by my comment and I already apologised and tried to explain.
And I think you know that the comment was not aimed at you personally, but at AI and my reaction to it.

As I said in my first post in this thread: This is my problem, not yours or anybody elses. Your example just made some "fears" I have about de-humanizing tendencies in general and Wikiloops in particular very clear to me. And frankly, the more I believe (as I do) that the lyrics you wrote were personal and important to you, the bigger the schism.

I know that my reaction and my arguments are illogical and 100% emotional.

Island Vibe is a great demo of a songwriter and lyricist to show what you would hope the "human" version to sound like. And it deserves a singer who is able to transport the emotions of the lyrics. But I need to the able to believe. And I can`t.


I won't be putting anymore Up now ok. I'm not leaving wiki I would be an Idiot, where else could I meet such awesome great musicians and lovely people. Such as yourself Thomas. This is my forever home. No matter where I roam wikiloops will always be, my forever home.:o:D
+4
posted on #75
Wade Supporter
Posts: 523
Joined: 25 nov. 2013
[quote]MySounds wrote:
Can I just point out a couple of flawed arguments I`ve read here?

We can have as many rules as we like but people will only follow those rules they accept and ignore the others. So, having a rule that says "no AI" is meaningless unless ALL members understand that rule to be an expression of a common understanding. And I bet such a rule would be broken as soon as it is written (and no one would even notice by 2025).

- With these negative thoughts in mind, I don`t think any sort of appeal to be "responsible" when using AI in music or to refrain from using it at all stands any chance. Where I do see a big opportunity for Wikiloops (as an example) is to be a sanctuary of transparency where the use of AI is tolerated but made explicitly clear.

(end quote from MySounds).

With due respect and agreeing that the community needs to buy into any rule that's set, we have other rules that are generally followed. One that stands out is that we can't bring copyrighted material here. There is a little red flag for reporting copyright problems. That could also be used for reporting AI. That makes everyone here potentially someone who can report AI as easily as we report copyright problems. The rules are clear regarding copyright and can be just as clear regarding AI. E.g. if you are caught bringing AI here you're either given a warning or out. That immediately cleans out the abusers and gives little scope for a new member trying their luck with AI.

There are very few that have entered this "discussion" or giving "likes" about promoting AI. My guess is that if a rule is set banning AI they will have to conform or leave. Likewise anyone entering/joining would find out very quickly that their tracks are erased and asked to leave. Is this difficult to comprehend?

Very early on Wikiloops needed to decide whether it was OK to allow copyright music/covers. It was decided and the rule set. No copyright material. There was certainly pressure from some who wanted to play "standards or covers", but they either conformed or left. The occasional copyright material shows up with some being reported, but it's certainly not a big issue. The rule works! I can't see any reason why an AI ban wouldn't be just as effective.

Trying to have some AI that's OK and some not, or that some users are exempt while others are blocked just isn't going to ever work and would require a lot of monitoring and judgement. A clear cut rule and keeping everyone active in the same way we are all actively checking to ensure copyright isn't a problem will yield a pretty clear picture to members, or anyone dropping in who tries to post AI tracks.

I just don't see any problem with banning AI, whereas trying to allow AI will kill this site's main reason for existing and likely see many or most members seeking somewhere else where music can be made strictly by people cooperating together. Why should this site willingly allow AI and destroy it's primary purpose for existing?

Heaps of sites feature covers, standards, tribute bands, etc. They are banned from here. Has that caused us a problem? Less members? Or has it possibly attracted creative musicians who wish to cooperatively make new music?

What will be the rarer thing as AI pushes its way into every other musical avenue? That rarer and more valued thing could be Wikiloops, but only if AI is kept out.
posted on #76
zedders Supporter
Posts: 245
Joined: 30 janv. 2021
Can AI do an add?
Can it listen to a track and provide a melody or does it have to always start from scratch?
Can Ai do a starter track that isn't in effect already finished?
Genuine questions.
If it's as limited as I'm alluding to it's going to be pretty obvious if someone turns up and only posts finished tracks.
posted on #77
MySounds Supporter
Posts: 178
Joined: 19 mars 2022
Sidenote to the copyright issue Wade mentioned:

The current U.S. Copyright Office guidelines state that human authorship is required for copyright protection, that it will refuse to register works solely generated by AI, and that any material which is not the product of human authorship must be disclaimed on a registration application.
+1
posted on #78
deezee Supporter
Posts: 87
Joined: 2 juil. 2018
MySounds wrote:
Sidenote to the copyright issue Wade mentioned:

The current U.S. Copyright Office guidelines state that human authorship is required for copyright protection, that it will refuse to register works solely generated by AI, and that any material which is not the product of human authorship must be disclaimed on a registration application.


I still own the copyright on my own lyrics used.
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posted on #79
Wade Supporter
Posts: 523
Joined: 25 nov. 2013
MySounds wrote:
Sidenote to the copyright issue Wade mentioned:

The current U.S. Copyright Office guidelines state that human authorship is required for copyright protection, that it will refuse to register works solely generated by AI, and that any material which is not the product of human authorship must be disclaimed on a registration application.


Thanks. Good to know. Of course copyright isn't really the issue. This is about whether Wikiloops would survive with the inclusion of AI tracks. I don't think it would since those of us who wish to play with others and have a community of musicians would probably go elsewhere.

Maybe there is a market for a site that's strictly for AI button pushers who wouldn't care if "their music" could be registered for a copyright. An opportunity for someone? I'd be willing to bet that a site that's promoted as hosting AI tracks at $1.00 each would be worth millions in a very short time. Of course nobody would listen, but it's an exercise similar to what in the book world was called "vanity publishing". Billions of egos out there wanting to boast how they have posted music on the internet! Maybe some of us also have that quirk? Ha!
posted on #80
deezee Supporter
Posts: 87
Joined: 2 juil. 2018
Wade wrote:
MySounds wrote:
Sidenote to the copyright issue Wade mentioned:

The current U.S. Copyright Office guidelines state that human authorship is required for copyright protection, that it will refuse to register works solely generated by AI, and that any material which is not the product of human authorship must be disclaimed on a registration application.


Thanks. Good to know. Of course copyright isn't really the issue. This is about whether Wikiloops would survive with the inclusion of AI tracks. I don't think it would since those of us who wish to play with outers and have a community of musicians would probably go elsewhere.

Maybe there is a market for a site that's strictly for AI button pushers who wouldn't care if "their music" could be registered for a copyright. An opportunity for someone? I'd be willing to bet that a site that's promoted as hosting AI tracks at $1.00 each would be worth millions in a very short time. Of course nobody would listen, but it's an exercise similar to what in the book world was called "vanity publishing". Billions of egos out there wanting to boast how they have posted music on the internet! Maybe some of us also have that quirk? Ha!




Goodness Wade lol you sound like you're in court of law you will have us all brainwashed soon. :D
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