Say something about Ai

When in doubt, check it out

https://www.deezer.com/explore/en-us/ai-music-detector/

For those that really want to know.

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Good tool that could be of use here.

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My reality is simple: I love hearing music from all of you and also gravitate towards new members and wish to hear what they have to offer.

Opening the floodgates to a lot of AI generated stuff with the lame excuse that it's inevitable is my cue to exit.

I simply don't wish to have to take a huge amount of time trying to find real music by real musicians.

There is every reason for this site to be a bastion for music created by people in a world where it seems apathy will allow technical banality to take over.

Keeping a strict human element will be the key in the future for people sick of being fed homogenized garbage to seek a human creative refuge.

That future is looming much closer than most realize. Keeping the floodgates closed to AI is likely to be this site's greatest asset.

I just googled "music with no AI". It's become a category that seems to have major uptake, even from "the industry" and very loudly/proudly stated. The division already exists. WL at this point could become a headliner for that category by excluding AI, or it can get lumped with the others due to having no clear policy or means of implementing a NO AI policy.

The "creep" of the technology into areas that seem benign is obvious. Do I want to hear people who can't sing use AI to make their singing in tune? No, I want to hear real singers and musicians! Should every track be adjusted to have perfect timing/rhythm?

I wish celebrate what it means to be imperfect and not a machine. Within that imperfection also lies our humanity and creativity. Listen to our drummers like Peter or DFD. They have microsecond differences that are what give their drumming the feel and character which make the music come alive. You can hear the difference! Quantize that out and the music is dead.

This site has celebrated us as musicians. Should that be abandoned because some have been sold on the idea of a new technology being inevitable? Our lives are about what we give time to. What music do you want to create and what music do you want to listen to?

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Well said Wade! I wholeheartedly agree with you and believe that what makes this site a unique bastion of expression and creativity is the human factor!

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[quote]Wade wrote:

"I wish celebrate what it means to be imperfect and not a machine. Within that imperfection also lies our humanity and creativity."

I share this vision. Music is a Human Art. HA and non AI. It is a means of expressing the soul of those who play. Imperfection is entirely a part of it. I would go even further: perfection in any art is boring and soulless. The magic that moves us or gives us goose bumps is human. Because they are humans who speak to humans. If robots want to make music for robots because they like it, that will come one day, free for them. But we made us music for humans!::@

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Maybe some have noticed that Dick is currently unable to comment on this discussion and share his views.

Before this gets out of hand, I think in all fairness not only to Dick but to everyone in WL, we should maybe take a step back to ensure that group dynamics don`t spiral into something we will all regret.

Let`s not forget that out of the x hundred active members only about 10 have actually voiced their opinion here, opinions which I read to be more about AI in music in general and less about WL.

Yes, there seems to be a group that would like WL to be 100% free of AI, a group that would at least want AI to be signposted by the uploaders and a group that is either too shy to voice an opinion or doesn`t have one.

But I do support anyone who wants to to make their position clear in their profile and to make conscious decicions on whose tracks to interact with.

So maybe we should for the moment hold off on making direct or indirect demands on Dick on what he should be doing, because it all comes down to the individual members themselves anyway. They are the ones who can sanction AI usage by ignoring the "offenders". And there will always be offenders regardless of how much technical or organizational policing WL could in theory provide.

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I would hope that some of you have checked out Bothen's find:
https://www.deezer.com/explore/en-us/ai-music-detector/

The site claims to be able to attach to a site (like WL) and screen for AI tracks. I doubt that it would have any way to "see" AI influenced hardware, but can sniff out AI generated tracks. That could be a good answer if it fits. I would volunteer to finance it and welcome others to do the same. It wouldn't be fair to ask Richard to be outlaying for this or add any further work load.

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I wonder if the simplest solution could be for Dick to add two possible choices when we load a track on WL. "This track is created with AI." and "This track is created without AI". It wouldn’t solve everything, but it could help identify some tracks. Knowing that those who create with AI could continue to post their songs, without deceiving anyone.

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Some musical tastes leave me baffled, but why not—as long as one can still play an instrument...
[youtube]pGXAMBcNsQo[/youtube]

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great discussion, one of the things I love about wikiloops is discussions like this and people's feelings and attitudes.

some of you may know already, but other sites have the same discussions and concerns. I've seen similar threads about AI music, so this thought process isn't something new or unique to wikiloops. people are even requesting non-AI additions to their tracks/music, or using AI as a guide and asking real musicians to replace the AI piece.

bottom line is it's here and how you choose to interact with it is purely your choice. I'll respect any members choice to use it, but just know I personally choose not to interact with it when I can or know. my preference is simply human-created music, drawing from your influences and background to invoke a musical response that is purely created by you and your human mind/hands/feet/lips/voice/etc is just where my heart is at this point in time.

I believe everyone has their own definition of AI as well, and that's fine and understandable.

cheers loopers! :W

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Maybe. If it's a pure AI track it would work I'm sure. If it's an Ai assisted lead break or vocal on top of a 4 piece human created band, I doubt it would be of much use or really detect anything scanning the entire mostly human track. I'm sure when Deezer says it has 99% accuracy .. it probably is, but on pure AI generated music. Those are easy to spot just with our ears for the time being. We mostly are familiar with each other here by now. If someone goes from shitty to pro overnight .. it's most likely Ai. LOL

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This is a collab site for amateurs (99%) :D .. if anything sounds too good to be true on here .. it probably is. AI may trick us elsewhere but I can't see it tricking many on wikiloops for very long. If anyone is using and thinking they're getting away with it, we're just being nice .. really! Most of us will be dead when Ai takes over the loops IMO LOL On the other hand, new people could show up and how would we know if that Ai is that good? I stand down and corrected. Oh Ai, why why why??? :D:O

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i just don't see the point of posting AI here. if you use AI, you can complete a song entirely on your own, w/o the help of other musicians, why post it here? you don't need a collab site for AI music, AI can create the entire song end-to-end...just go straight to vinyl with it :)

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HAHA Ron! I'll definitely know it's not live when that cassette tape is being chewed up in my old ghetto blaster. Gimme a pencil!! :D:D

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It comes back to what is this site about. It's for musicians, it's not spotify. The box that's ticked says that you are the creator of the music you post. That's (IMHO) not something that's AI generated. This is a special place that's for musicians. It's not a general site for listening.

I'm sorry if that excludes people who would like to think they are musicians but can't play an instrument or sing. There are lots of other sites that can cater for them and their AI tracks.

You either keep what's special about this place and is clearly stated in the box you tick, or it becomes no different to all the others. How does it become OK if someone just states that it's AI. You are either a musician cooperating in making music or you're not. My choice is simple AI in... I'm out.

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We're discussing this among ourselves. It actually doesn't matter what we say or who the majority are as Richard owns the site and sets whatever rules he wants. This is not a democracy. He can just ignore all of this until it fades away and do nothing.

I've reported a very obvious AI track and it's still there. So currently there is no enforcement, will that change? I've "blocked" the member, which is all I can do, but that isn't a real solution unless the perpetrator is publicly called out and everyone blocks them. That's a rather ugly way in which members can screen AI perpetrators, and it would be far better to have these screened by a third party and eliminated from the start. However it's the only action we can take (as individuals) at this point.

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This is my take on it: the reason we are strong on covers is because it can actually cause the site to vanish. So we act on it. Thank you for reporting covers. The reason we don't allow bullying, flaming, religion or politics is because we like to have a nice and relaxed atmosphere. So if someone is overstepping it, being nasty, he or she is gone. However if someone uploads terrible music, we don't do anything. And for me, at the moment, AI is just terrible music. If I hear it, I don't comment on it. I don't like it, I don't finish the track. I don't remix it. I just ignore it. So should everyone who does not like it. All the talk about "policing" and "reporting" and getting all holy and pure about it, relax. You hear an AI track, move on. Same as when you see a bad movie. Change station. Seen a naked woman on TV? Change station. Move on. And one day, once the whole subject of AI is clearer, when it can be clear what is considered AI and what not, Dick will or won't decide to do something. In the meantime you can continue to agitate for some action, some policing, whatever - don't! Just change station. Wikiloops will always have some bad tracks, live with it. Go to the next track. Ignore. All right?peace!

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Uhm ... you had me up until that part of your speech Tee! :D:D

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The presence of AI is already here. The amount that exists on other sites is becoming a flood.

Richard previously determined that AI tracks violate the current tick box system for allowing uploads. Either you're abandoning that policy, or require a means of enforcement.

Relaxing, and pretending that it isn't a potential problem is IMHO not a solution. It's postponing actions that would be easier to implement now or have AI become a de-facto component of WL.

If AI tracks start to take up space, time, and are being funded by supporter's financial contributions then that may have repercussions.

How about an "off the wall" suggestion: Have a completely separate category altogether for all AI tracks so that they are not mixed with ours. My guess is that the majority of AI tracks will be somewhat complete and not suitable for adds anyway. It can be the non-musician section for those who just wish to post AI tracks or listen to them. I'd also charge for each upload as it takes up the site's storage. Make it "possible" but distinguish between what this site was designed for (musicians wishing to collaborate) compared to computer generated music.

The last thing that should be happening is to do nothing as that then just turns the site into a muddy mess with a loss of the purpose this site has always had.

It's very disheartening to have no recognition for what is clearly seen by many here as a threat to what this site has meant to them and the primary reason for its existence.

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From Google in a search for sites that ban AI: This is from 8 months ago. It seems that Bandcamp considers AI needed to be banned... their blurb:

Bandcamp has built its entire brand around serving artists. And, with the artist furor over AI growing every day, it’s no surprise that the company has decided to take a stand against it. In a Reddit post, Bandcamp announced that AI-generated content would not be permitted on the platform and would be subject to removal.

The guidelines leave little room for interpretation. In the post, the company says that “Music and audio that is generated wholly or in substantial part by AI is not permitted on Bandcamp.” It also prohibits using AI tools to impersonate other artists or styles, similar to a rule implemented by Spotify in September. The support team also encourages people to use the site’s reporting tool to flag any music that “appears to be made entirely or with heavy reliance on generative AI.”

Wait? Ignore?... Really?

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