"other"

Willi, in the end I will have to get my Sohaegeum out :D

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Ah, TG,
Unfortunately I did not know that the North-Korean lawyer which you already were talking about, donated a haegum as a frequency discount for all the cash, he made by you.
;)

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guys... please?!

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Why do I get the impression that the system may be easier than the discussion? To be honest I'm not as concerned about the "search" aspects (although I understand how this could be important to some). I've never searched for a multi instrument track based on what instruments are included. Is this common among users? Seems to me that the majority of adds come about by hearing what's new or following specific players and looking up what they have done. The lists of most popular tracks including the same instruments (as what you are hearing) is also a great reference. Would it matter that much if the category "other" came up or just a "?". We also have blanks for players who don't have an avatar.

OK, how about a wind back: What if there was no requirement to put down a style or instrument? That's really the problem as one can't post or continue without this. As Richard points out the meter can remain blank, so that's not a problem (but appeared to be also mandatory as it was alongside those other mandatory categories).

I'm also OK with duplicates and ridiculously obscure designations being shut down (a style/make of piano or guitar etc.). Where a category exists and is pretty close it should be used. To go back to two examples the duduk (by any other name) is not a sax or clarinet in sound, construction, or almost any other way other than they both use air. Neither is a sitar a guitar. Requiring people to use those designations is a wall. Will there be members who demand that the same instrument be listed again in their language? Well, that comes down to whether Richard wishes to accommodate those energies that tend to divide people. If a name for an instrument exists and is accommodated first then that instrument is accommodated...accommodating political divisions and animosities I see as negative. As it is we have a category "harp". It probably should have been "harmonica", but I see no reason to change it as the real harp can come in as Celtic harp or concert harp. So far there's been no demand...and there may never be.

Once again I don't pretend to understand the machinations of coding, but see all of this from a rather simplistic point of view. The important point is to not be turning people away by forcing them to misrepresent what they play. Is it possible to accommodate NOT having to list a style and instrument and defer this to the "tags"?

The alternative is "other" if cataloguing for searches is deemed to be all that important. My personal opinion is that searches are not that important and ancillary to the site's main purposes.

Wishing all of you a good debate and to be well and happy. I’ll be out of communication for a while as I’m off to Perth Western Australia tomorrow morning. May not be around for a few weeks.

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One thing that i would like to mention is that when i do a search, i very often EXCLUDE instruments rather than include. And i'm not sure that by excluding "others" i will get the results i want

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14 days later...
just wanted to let you guys know I have spent quite some hours developing the instrument category expansion lately, and after adding a list of around 540 international instruments (thank you, wikipedia) and the temporary "other" categories as I had proposed earlier, it does look to me as if wikiloops just got quite a bit better. I am hoping to have the BETA release of the new interface ready to check out within the next week, and I'm really looking foreward to what you'll have to say about this one :)
Concerning Niltons comment on the instrument exclusion: I totally agree the exclusion part is different to the choices segment, and it has very little value to exclude "others", or to be able to exclude too specific instruments - exclusion works much better if you can exclude whole families of instruments, and it has been set up to exclude p.e. both acoustic and electric guitars if you exclude one of both for a long time - the way this works shall also become more visible in the future, and the "exclusion" filter will have to be set up seperately from the rest - exclusing rare instruments like the "haegeum" certainly doesn't work well as a filter - it would throw all tracks as a result...
Thanks once more for the input from your end, these adresses are totally valuable to me, let's hope we will remember this one as a good improvement to have added one day.

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Good thinking and nice work. Thank you kindly

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Feeling nosy now!
:)

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Hello Everyone,
Whew, , a lot of info to digest to this point..
ALL have a valid concern and point if you ask me..

My humble opinion for what it's worth is,

Richard's proposal minus one thing.. Suggesting new things. Don't do it.
Leave the forums for that.
Reason:
1. If I want to suggest a new instrument,timing,feel,genre etc.
It should be done in the forums. It is global, and has instant feedback from others.
2. Richard could have a look, and see who's jumping in on it.. Like right now. Simple.

I like Will's answer about leaving it in the notes. Again, simple.
Although I can't express if that is searchable.. Richard ?

I go to restaurants all the time, and find something to eat. They only have limited menu items.
Not a feeling of being not-included.
I suggest something to the owner, and if he get's enough requests, he adds it. Simple.

Again, I am not excluding Wade's opinion, I get where he is coming from.

I like Richard's hidden message idea, but the proposal system would be overwhelming, let me explain.
When I am recording, mixing, adding, etc. I want instant evaluation, and for the clock-works (wikiloops) to respond quickly.
Meaning less clutter, more doing.

Gumming up that process seems to me, very treacherous ground. And could have a negative impact on the newbie.

Now editing AFTER the fact would be a FANTASTIC idea.

Just keeping the creative process flowing, equals better collaboration.

What say you ?

~MasterK

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Thanks Richard. I'm anxious to see how this works out. More importantly it will be interesting to see if those "other" instruments start to show up. I suspect that (as with the whole project) it will take a year or two for those (seemingly excluded) folks from Asia and Africa to join and then spread the word through their musical communities. As with any non-hyped media we are totally dependent on a combination of "lucky web searches" and word of mouth.

MasterK's restaurant analogy is interesting. Most restaurants are happy to display a menu or say what style/type of food they serve. You don't go in if they don't have the sort of food you eat. Wikiloops says it serves world-wide cuisine. That is a challenge and requires a big menu.

It's hard to know how many musicians have been turned away when the menu turned out to be so limited. It certainly wouldn't be realistic to expect them to buy shares in the restaurant in order to change the menu to fit them.

It's always best to use simple solutions. I trust Richard's resourcefulness to come up with a solution that will work. My suggestion of "other" was very simple and excluded nobody, yet (it seems) could have created other problems when fitted into searches.

Current members are hopefully well satisfied/served so it may have been difficult for them to see the need. My hope is that by throwing open the doors to those who have (seemingly) been excluded we will enrich the site and music generally.

Once again I thank Richard for doing his best to keep this site "inclusive".

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Hope this finds everyone in good health.

Thanks for the counter-point Wade, and again, I am with you on the idea.

Maybe I don't see the loops as "World Cuisine" as much as I see it as "Inter-Global Collaboration".

This may be my dis-connect with changing it.

But, as all things grow, so do the problems. And Richard must get high regards for doing all the "engine room" work. Without proper payment.
I don't know anywhere else this happens, or at least very little.

So , that being said, I myself keep any changing of the nucleus ideas to a minimum, just so he doesn't gain anymore work load.
That doesn't mean I won't appreciate any of his work. :)

Last thought on this.
We didn't have nuclear power 100 years ago, but we didn't have nuclear WASTE either.......

~MasterK

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Good point from MasterK. We all need to appreciate Richard's hard work and as supporters reward him for that.

I certainly hope that the request for this change is not seen as capricious and instead as overdue. The fact that it may not matter to the majority of current users isn't the issue. The issue was one of exclusion. We have learned to embrace concepts like the Paralympics and celebrate achievements of others who are "not like us".

Up to now those "others" have been excluded...unintentionally. There is wealth of experience, knowledge and musical integrity those people can bring to this place that can enrich us. This is something we can embrace, and use. The alternative is to keep to ourselves and be a "tribe" that excludes and considers those outside to be unwelcome, inferior or a threat.

I trust Richard's ability to have solved the technical problems such that nobody will be unduly put off by the changes. We have much to gain (IMHO) and nothing to loose.

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Good morning folks, nice to start another day on the code with reading this - and a special welcome to MasterK, it does take some nerves to digest threads like this one, certainly nothing for the 156 characters-max generation...
I believe Wade is quite right about the two-years idea before one can tell how certain changes affect the way wikiloops works & feels, and in my experience it is crucial wether there are a few users who demonstrate the correct use of any feature in a way that inspires others to follow their example. We will have to see how this goes on each and any change or expansion, it is part of the process in my books.
The Restaurant comparison is good in a way, the thing is, the internet and especially anything "wiki" does have the concept of unlimited & permanently expanding menus, so I'm not really sure the picture does fit too well here.
One thing we certainly do not want to happen is wikiloops turning into one of those restaurants which offer food from 8 countries, but all on a lowered quality level compared to restaurants which stick to some style...
Thinking about it, wikiloops is more of a pot-luck party where anyone is asked to ring some food. We have tables set up labeled with "Cake" and "Potatoe dishes", and those who bring Noodles feel like "Where shall I put these? Didn't they want noodles?". All I'm intending is to offer a little basket with paper cards and a pen, saying "If you need a new label, write your own here", and that does make total sense if you look at it this simple way.

The "open the system to user contributed categories" aspect does have the problem MasterK adresses that it will indeed require some moderation to keep track if newly added categories are really beneficial. It may take some good information on which standards to follow when suggesting a new category (which, on a side note, will of course be ignored by a majority of users), but once the box is open, we will have to live with this extra item to take care of. I do think about these things, and yes, there is a certain scaryness about allowing anyone to enter new things/menuitems. In the end, we need to be aware that people are constantly adding this kind of content by freely choosing track titles and other text on wikiloops. Wether someone finds it funny to call his track "Supershizzle" or declare his instrument as "Supershizzle" doesn't really make that much of a difference in the end, and as long as it rests with the moderation team to decide wether "Supershizzle" should be offered among the searchable categories, there is not much to be affraid of.

Another adressed aspect is the need to keep things as simple as possible to not disturb the fun-workflow of the whole thing.
If uploading becomes as complicated as a german tax form, then we've gone wrong somewhere. The system I have set up for now (on the beta) is on its way to a quite clean layout that only offers certain things (like defining a new instrument) after a user indicates interest in this aspect. I'd say it even flows a bit softer than the old upload form you guys are used to, even tho it has quite a lot of extra things built in.

One idea that I might as well include is to order the needed instrument selection dropdown menu individually to let instruments which the user has uploaded in the past appear in a seperate area at the top of the menu - that would be very convenient to have, since most people will stick to 1-4 kinds of istruments, it would reduce the effort to choose / declare instruments to the moments you do something different than you usually do. That's a pretty good idea I think.
I'll be off to the world of code for now, a first preview of what has been achieved so far will be available in a few days time.

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Thanks Richard. Very much looking forward to this.

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and once it will be live i really look forward to more duduk tracks from you Wade !! no excuses anymore haha
(just kidding !) ... (or maybe NOT ??) :D

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Will have to wait until November. Am now in Australia and the Duduk is in New Zealand. Maybe next could be bass clarinet, oboe, or English horn as none of these are currently covered and I play all of them (but don't currently own any of them). There are also lots of standard western instruments not currently catered for.

Really hope people show up who play Koto, Shamisen, Pipa, Sitar, Sarangi, Zither, Cimbalom, Mbira, etc. as these all have very distinctive voices that could work well with what we are already doing as well as add musical dimensions we currently can't even imagine.

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a cimbalom !! ôÔ this thing is completely out of this world ... weighs two dead donkeys and has a completely different approach as for notes placement ! what some ppl do with this thing is totally different in a crazy way !!

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Yea I rally like the cimbalom. I'm half Hungarian so have heard this sound for much of my life and admired the rapid fire percussive style of playing. I also like its mellow Indian cousin the Santoor. These would be great additions and add some exotic spice to the mix. I'd love to hear what you're talking about if the cimbalom is being played non-traditionally. Got any links?

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I'm still stuck on Cake and is a superschizzle a kind of cake? Ok I'll let the adults hash this out!

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Sorry I'm back! What I'd like is to get more Cello, violin, oboe, horns, tubas and on.... to come here and add to templates.
If you want a cimbalom PM WhitePongo and he can dial in a cimbalom for you on his guitar,
but
somehow we need to get more of the players that can help build the songs to their "Robust Fullness" which a lot of times could, but doesn't happen. Dick can't program that in! But we all could try recruiting at local universities with Music departments and Recording classes. I plan (SOON)(yeah I know Dick)(Did you say Cake) to present to the two or three universities in my locality WIKILOOPS as a benefit to their educational endeavors in recording and musical development. My brother also play volleyball with a Professor in Houston(Trombone) and present wikiloops to him to present/require in his class to participate for the class grade!

Sorry I just off the topic (some) but not really!

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