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About bass recording

about bass recording

posted on #21
OliVBee Supporter
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the volume should always be a mix concern and never a recording matter ! when recording you should just worry about the input level : never too hot because once it's recorded there's no way to fix it afterwards ! you can ALWAYS get it louder though ;)
+4
posted on #22
BossHen
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OliVBee wrote:
the volume should always be a mix concern and never a recording matter ! when recording you should just worry about the input level : never too hot because once it's recorded there's no way to fix it afterwards ! you can ALWAYS get it louder though ;)

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posted on #23
BossHen
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BossHen wrote:
OliVBee wrote:
the volume should always be a mix concern and never a recording matter ! when recording you should just worry about the input level : never too hot because once it's recorded there's no way to fix it afterwards ! you can ALWAYS get it louder though ;)


My target but suspect my set is up is not the ideal, as well want to get the tone of the pre amp clean into the DAW and I like some heat from the gain ....... and mix with minimum investment in time playing with a good DAW
+1
posted on #24
wjl Supporter
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Joined: 14 févr. 2018
About a "tubey" tone: I'd like to compare these:

[img]https://www.thomann.de/pics/bdb/282026/11233060_800.jpg[/img]

(the Radial Firefly which was used in the recording video by Al Schmitt in my initial post)

[img]https://www.thomann.de/pics/bdb/191529/12611991_800.jpg[/img]

(a microphone preamp which can be used as a tube DI box as well), and

[img]https://www.thomann.de/pics/bdb/370898/10550043_800.jpg[/img]

(an Ampeg PF-20T bass amplifier)

All three use the same 12AX7/ECC83 tubes. The first one is about 700€ as I write this, the second under 50€, the amplifier at 530€ sits in between. According to https://www.disssa.de/reviews/amps/ampeg-portaflex-pf-20t/ that small amp (which can even be used without a cabinet if you wish) sounds a lot more like an original B-15 than its bigger PF-50T brother.

Would be an interesting comparison...

Cheers,
Wolfgang
posted on #25
GemmyF
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BossHen wrote:
A great thread learned a lot. When I first started on the loops I spent a lot of time cutting re-recording and used to take 4 or 5 takes and take the best sections. Now I tend to try and do in one or two takes and accept the imperfections and approach more as a jam session.

But some great tips here and the main challenge I face is I record through an Elan tube pre amp as a DI and balancing this with my Steinberg audio interface and its pre amp not to over bake the gain while achieving volume
well the great thing about a track digitally speaking is if it isn't loud enough you can alway duplicate the track on another track or even on two extra tracks if need be-----so trying to come in too hot should never be a concern -----if you're having a hard time hearing yourself---then turn down the track you're playing with ---then you can balance sound by duplicating your track....and bringing the other track up to the volume you need it to be
+2
posted on #26
OliVBee Supporter
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GemmyF wrote:
well the great thing about a track digitally speaking is if it isn't loud enough you can alway delicate the track to another track or even two other tracks if need be-----so trying to come in too hot should never be a concern -----if you're having a hard time hearing yourself---then turn down the track you're playing with ---then you can balance sound by duplicating your track....and bringing the other track up to the volume you need it to be


Not the way i would do myself because duplicating tracks means running into phase issues ... i would probably use a limiter on the stem but most probably on the output mix to get the overall output to a decent listening level ... you want to keep that in a reasonable field so you don't kill all the dynamics !
+3
posted on #27
KMstar
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I think recording too hot is worse than not loud enough but when its too low it can amplify noise when you try to make it louder as all the hiss and hum gets louder too
+2
posted on #28
wjl Supporter
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Joined: 14 févr. 2018
Just to put new life into an old thread - how are you guys recording by now?

Not too loud is the obvious answer, but I'm also asking about tools.

For instance, while reading a lot about tube preamps lately, I decided against one in the end, and got a Tech 21 VT Bass DI instead, which gives me a bit of that same characteristic compressed sound of tubes without actually using those. That I can bypass and still go in directly via a second cable is an additional plus.

Or when recording my upright lately using that preamp (plus direct), but also three microphones (a stereo small condenser set of the Zoom H5 plus my Røde NT1-A also plugged into that Zoom recorder), I actually liked the (stereo) track with those small Zoom mikes the best - who would have thought?

Or eGiL who once mentioned a Line6 Helix (in another thread) - all valid options.

Just curious on how you guys are doing it, because here we can immediately hear how we sound... my latest ones using my preamp on my fretless start with:

[wl]245196[/wl]

And on everything since then I used that with the same setting, still can sound very differently:

[wl]245209[/wl]

or this:

[wl]245846[/wl]

Interested in hearing/reading about you, fellow bass players...
+1
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posted on #29
MySounds Supporter
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I am still experimenting with various setups and basically fighting on two fronts, a) the bass sound itself and b) the final mix.

A couple of weeks ago I started to "treat" the final mix after creating it as I found that noise (clicking etc.), loudness and other issues only become obvious after mixing.

Still it`s all work in progress and I get to learn something new everyday :-)
+2
posted on #30
wjl Supporter
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Joined: 14 févr. 2018
MySounds wrote:
I get to learn something new everyday :-)


Same here Thomas :) Yesterday I have been listening to some older Motown stuff for an hour or so, and it was interesting to hear how nice the bass sounded in the mix... so I often try to hear it all in context before turning any more knobs... :)
+3
posted on #31
Woxbox Supporter
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Joined: 14 janv. 2019
I just reread this thread after struggling once again to get a bass recording that sounds reasonably like what I hear in the room. With the guitar, my setup works pretty well. The playback is what I expect. But the bass has always difficult. I switched to an SM57 mic, which helps but it still losses stuff here and muffles stuff over there. I just now experimented with DI into my Behringer preamp. It's pretty clean, but also kind of dry.

I have taken the advice here to heart and experimented heavily with compression and EQ settings. That cleans up the track nicely but of course it can't put back what the mike never picked up in the first place.

That first video recommends mixing the mike and DI, and I can see why. But my Ampeg amp doesn't accommodate this -- the output is to the speaker or headphone jack, no other option.

So I'm wondering how much difference a dedicated bass microphone would make. I'm looking at the Shure PGA52-XLR. Seems to be the next step. Make sense? Are there other bass microphones I should consider?

Thanks in advance -- Dave
+1
posted on #32
wjl Supporter
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Hello Dave,

Woxbox wrote:
... get a bass recording that sounds reasonably like what I hear in the room. With the guitar, my setup works pretty well. The playback is what I expect. But the bass has always difficult. I switched to an SM57 mic, which helps but it still losses stuff here and muffles stuff over there. I just now experimented with DI into my Behringer preamp. It's pretty clean, but also kind of dry.


I've looked up the keyword 'Ampeg' in your profile, and you write there that you have a BA-110, that's one of their small combo amps if I remember correctly?

I also stumbled somehow over your expectation to get something 'that sounds reasonably like what I hear in the room' - and that is kind of impossible I think, the way an amplifier and room interact with each other can never be replicated except maybe with re-amping (but only you would be able to hear that).


Woxbox wrote:
I have taken the advice here to heart and experimented heavily with compression and EQ settings. That cleans up the track nicely but of course it can't put back what the mike never picked up in the first place.

That first video recommends mixing the mike and DI, and I can see why. But my Ampeg amp doesn't accommodate this -- the output is to the speaker or headphone jack, no other option.

So I'm wondering how much difference a dedicated bass microphone would make. I'm looking at the Shure PGA52-XLR. Seems to be the next step. Make sense? Are there other bass microphones I should consider?

Thanks in advance -- Dave


I think what you'd like to have is maybe a combination of DI signal (dry and direct into the interface), and your amp sound? Most DI boxes also have a direct parallel output, so you could go into the Behringer interface with the XLR cable, and with a normal instrument cable from the DI to your amp, you split that signal into two. Please note that everything what the others said (like for instance OliVBee with his remarks about phase issues) will apply, that's why I only tried that once with my also small MarkBass combo amp (which does have a DI out itself)...

About the microphone question, yes that SM57 is often recommended especially for guitars and also for things like snare drums, because it follows the transients quite nicely, and also has that certain 'twang' which give guitar amps just that touch of aggressiveness which is often sought after, and welcomed. For bass: yes you can take it, and yes there would be better ones - but still, even a better mike won't give you the sound of your amp that you hear in your room, in fact you don't want that room component on most recordings.

I've tried my large diaphragm condenser (Røde NT1-A) on the 15" speaker of my MarkBass combo, and it's okay with a bit of tweaking, but of course not nearly as direct as the clean bass signal. If you mix those, you could possibly take GrooveEnth's remark about effect tracks to heart, and split the signal with a cross-over in the DAW, so that for instance everything under 200Hz is direct, and everything above is miked amp?

What I do since a while is not using two channels/tracks like I described in https://www.wikiloops.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=2004&rowstart=20#post_21482 anymore, but using the quarter inch output of my active DI into the interface, and using the device's 'blend' knob to mix the dry and modded signal directly before going in. Like Thomas wrote, always learning (and listening) :) And believe me, once you have something like an upright, well that's another can of worms entirely :D

Ampsims in the DAW might help as well in case you'll go in direct - I sometimes used a virtual Ampeg SVT amp (with or without cabsim) in my DAW, that came close to the VT Bass DI I'm using now (which mimics different Ampeg amps and a switchable cabinet as well).

So yes, the Shure mike you've mentioned would give you a different sound, so would a Sennheiser, AKG, or even a large diaphragm condenser, but it still won't be the sound of your amp in your room...

Hope that helps a bit? Good luck with your search for the perfect tone, we're all on that path... :)

Cheers,
Wolfgang
+2
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posted on #33
Woxbox Supporter
Posts: 15
Joined: 14 janv. 2019
Wolfgang -- Thanks very much for the detailed answer. That's a lot of material to work with. I'll experiment some more. Using amp sims after the fact is something I hadn't considered. Your comments also made me realize that I can also experiment with DI from my Vox guitar amp, which simulates all sorts of rigs (not bass, but I'm not looking for a bass-heavy tonal quality, either.)

When I mentioned looking to replicate the sound in the room, what I meant was at least getting the clarity and definition of tone that comes from the amplifier. I do agree that looking for an exact replica of the room sound is usually not the goal of recording.

I'll play around with all these variables some more and see where it takes me.

-Dave
+1
posted on #34
Woxbox Supporter
Posts: 15
Joined: 14 janv. 2019
I just posted my first experiment with DI with a sim amp added in the DAW. Specifically, the Fender Bassman Tweed Champ available in the Reaper stock library. I still worked the file with the compressor and EQ tools, but not as heavily as I needed to when working with a recording picked up with the mike. In particular, I was able to let the low end come through more strongly without it getting all muddy. I'm pleased with this, but I'll keep at it. I may try one of those tube pre-amps to give some more warmth and versatility to the input. The results of this experiment are track #258953.
-Dave
+1
posted on #35
wjl Supporter
Posts: 797
Joined: 14 févr. 2018
Woxbox wrote:
... the Fender Bassman Tweed Champ available in the Reaper stock library. I still worked the file with the compressor and EQ tools, but not as heavily as I needed to when working with a recording picked up with the mike. In particular, I was able to let the low end come through more strongly without it getting all muddy. I'm pleased with this, but I'll keep at it. The results of this experiment are track #258953.
-Dave


That sounds very nice Dave, and I just commented the same on your track as well :)

Woxbox wrote:
I may try one of those tube pre-amps to give some more warmth and versatility to the input.
-Dave


Tube preamps, wow, yes, that's the in-thing amongst pros, most of them using the Noble:

https://nobleamps.com/preamps/

which is expensive, but if you earn your money with playing bass then I guess it's worth it. Even more expensive are the ones made by Jule, like the Monique or the Simone:

https://www.juleamps.com/

- a question of personal taste if you ask me. There's a comparison of all these nice tube preamps in

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/tube-preamp-di-sound-samples-%E2%80%94-noble-oracle-p-15-super-stack-reddi-tonecraft-jule.1469686/

where you can hear them against each other - you can really lose yourself in threads like these, as I did a while ago. In the end, I've been very close to buying a GP Lightstone which a guy here in Berlin makes:

https://www.gp-lightstone.de/

- but I still had some questions, and he took some two to three weeks or so to answer, so I bought one without tubes in a local music store in the end, this one in case you're interested:

https://www.tech21nyc.com/products/sansamp/vtbass-di/

Comes from NYC and mimics tubes which also might mean: less maintenance, no warm-up times, and so on. You can hear my Squier Precision Fretless together with that on all tracks newer than and including this one:

[wl]245196[/wl]

Before using that out gear I used a virtual Ampeg SVT plugin, but I think that's for Linux only:

https://github.com/brummer10/GxSVT.lv2

Sounded nice and almost like the Tech21NYC one in a way, but I didn't use that one on all tracks - sometimes a direct bass sound with a bit reverb and chorus above 200Hz on a second channel is the nicer option, especially when soloing on a fretless bass.

But with that built-in Reaper plugin you sound great already, keep experimenting with that (like perhaps adding more clean bottom end with splitting the signal or so. You can do things like these outside the box with modeling devices like the Line 6 HX Stomp and upwards (in price and size))

Hope that helped a bit?
Cheers,
Wolfgang
+1
posted on #36
Woxbox Supporter
Posts: 15
Joined: 14 janv. 2019
Thanks again, Wolfgang. I'll be busy working on this for some time. I did listen through those preamp samples, and my main takeaway was that the cost of the pricier boxes isn't strongly reflected in the results. As you say, it's mostly subjective preference.

From instrument selection through what can be a pretty complex chain before the sound reaches the headphones, there are almost too many variables to comprehend. But I'll go back to the lab and run some more experiments. Splitting a track and applying effects on selected frequencies is something I'd never considered, but it makes sense. I think I'll start there.

Cheers,
Dave
+1
posted on #37
Woxbox Supporter
Posts: 15
Joined: 14 janv. 2019
Back with an update. I've added an ART Studio V3 preamp to the equipment mix looking for improved direct input. This is a newer version of the unit pictured higher in the thread. The key feature is a tube to warm up the signal. It has presets for various instruments and voice, but no individual EQ controls.

Check out track #262611 for a sample of what it can do. I did not use a sim amp on this track. The Fender sims do open the sound quite a bit for more of a lead-style bass sound. What I did add in this track is some reverb. BTW, this was recorded 100% from a piezo bridge pickup.

I still have lots of experimenting to do, but I feel I'm getting closer to what I'm looking for. The DI route definitely gets a cleaner bass sound into the DAW. I experimented some with the Telecaster, and quickly concluded that amp to mike is preferable for that instrument.
+1
posted on #38
Old_Mojo
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Posts: 45
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It is taking me much longer to get back to uploading tracks than I anticipated. I have Audacity, my Audiobox and basic settings sorted pretty well, but I'm not getting the tones I want. I have given the Sterling Ray5 a solid two months of experimenting, and it simply doesn't give me what I'm after. I have not been able to get used to the active humbucker and EQ.
My new P-bass should be here some time this week. That soft growl is absolutely essential to what I am trying to say with my bass tracks. Maybe it has something to do with playing P-basses for half a century?
On the subject of recording level, I agree that too hot can cause unfixable problems in a bass track. However, too soft also introduces problems, i.e. lower than ideal signal to noise ratio and missing tonal details. I have learned much about the use of compression in the past few weeks. If not overdone, it can help even out dynamics without adversely affecting details, and allow for more expression without hitting the "crunch limit".
Very much enjoying this thread. Cheers, David
+3
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posted on #39
wjl Supporter
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Joined: 14 févr. 2018
Good thoughts David - and although Pino Palladino sounded just great on his fretless Music Man, a P-Bass is always easier to get "into" the mix well (nowadays you'll see Pino on P-Basses mostly).

If you're after that bit of extra "warmth", consider to also read Joe's / LittleWing's posts in this thread: https://www.wikiloops.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=3233

He's right in that even small transformers like in his Rupert Neve DI or in a 1073 preamp (clone mostly, originals are expensive) add something nice to the tone, like tubes also do. You'll get some kind of compression from both if that is what you're searching for.

But even straight into an interface I like the sound of my (cheap Squier, and fretless) P-Bass a lot. You can still add an amp and/or cab sim in the computer as well, and it helps if you split the signal for that (like say, treat everything above some 200Hz as the "wet" and everything under as a "dry" channel). Makes it easier to fine-tweak after the recording.

Upright is even more difficult to record - so many choices regarding microphones and their positions, (piezo) pickups with and without preamps, buffers, 10MOhm inputs, and so on.

But as we say here in Germany, the journey is the reward...

So have fun,
Wolfgang
+2
posted on #40
Old_Mojo
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Thanks, Wolfgang. A tube pre-amp is likely in my future, but I just blew my budget on the P-bass (Squire FSR 70s Classic Vibe).
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